You VERY CONVENIENTLY forgot to point this out: But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed... So in fact Peter was asking the Lord to raise Tabitha. But Christ simply walked up to certain individuals and raised them from the dead. In the case of Lazarus, He simply asked him to come out of his tomb.
kenosis . . ?
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No it doesn't. Hebrews 1:3 says that at the time Hebrews was written Jesus is holding all things together by the word of His power after he had purged our sins and had sat down at God's right hand.
The participles all take their time references from the principal verb "sat down" (ekathisen: aorist active indicative). So, at the time Jesus sat down at God's right hand, i.e. after His Luke 24:51 ascension is the anchor for the participles. Jesus received back His pre-incarnate glory on Resurrection Sunday, so Heb. 1:3 is confessing that Jesus is the brightness of God's glory and the express image of His person and is upholding all things by the word of His power 40 days later as He sat down at God's right hand, and that Jesus had purged our sins in the past of His sitting down.
It does not say ANYTHING about Jesus state during His pre-Calvary ministry.
The participles all take their time references from the principal verb "sat down" (ekathisen: aorist active indicative). So, at the time Jesus sat down at God's right hand, i.e. after His Luke 24:51 ascension is the anchor for the participles. Jesus received back His pre-incarnate glory on Resurrection Sunday, so Heb. 1:3 is confessing that Jesus is the brightness of God's glory and the express image of His person and is upholding all things by the word of His power 40 days later as He sat down at God's right hand, and that Jesus had purged our sins in the past of His sitting down.
It does not say ANYTHING about Jesus state during His pre-Calvary ministry.
@PaulThomson
Currently I do not debate with Unitarians or those who deny Jesus is God. It’s pretty basic in Scripture that Jesus is God. I may later create a thread here to defend the Trinity and the deity of Jesus Christ. But anyone reading the Bible can clearly see this unless they simply do not like these biblical truths and thereby they seek to fight against Scripture.
Currently I do not debate with Unitarians or those who deny Jesus is God. It’s pretty basic in Scripture that Jesus is God. I may later create a thread here to defend the Trinity and the deity of Jesus Christ. But anyone reading the Bible can clearly see this unless they simply do not like these biblical truths and thereby they seek to fight against Scripture.
You really don't realise how much your are eisegeting your own opinions and special pleading into the biblical texts to force them into mandating your theories as dogma, do you?
You argued that Jesus must have been omnipotent during His earthly ministry because He raised some dead people. When I pointed out that this is not proof of Jesus raising people by His own power, because Peter raised a dead person and Peter did not need to be omnipotent to do so, you resorted to special pleading - claiming Jesus did not need to pray to receive power to do His miracles, when we are told that Jesus rose early often to go out to spend private time with God in prayer before his daily challenges arrived.
How do you logically disconnect Jesus' prayer from His power to raise the dead, especially when Jesus confessed that He could do nothing without the Father's help and direction, when direction obviously comes via communication/prayer. We are not told whether Jesus or Peter petitioned for a resurrection miracle, or inquired regarding God's will toward the dead in his prayer, before raising the dead.
You argued that Jesus must have been omnipotent during His earthly ministry because He raised some dead people. When I pointed out that this is not proof of Jesus raising people by His own power, because Peter raised a dead person and Peter did not need to be omnipotent to do so, you resorted to special pleading - claiming Jesus did not need to pray to receive power to do His miracles, when we are told that Jesus rose early often to go out to spend private time with God in prayer before his daily challenges arrived.
How do you logically disconnect Jesus' prayer from His power to raise the dead, especially when Jesus confessed that He could do nothing without the Father's help and direction, when direction obviously comes via communication/prayer. We are not told whether Jesus or Peter petitioned for a resurrection miracle, or inquired regarding God's will toward the dead in his prayer, before raising the dead.
Jesus was contextually speaking about what would be the case in the church after His resurrection, after Jesus had received back the glory He had had with the Father before His incarnation. It is not contextually speaking of what was then the pre-resurrection present. Compare Matt. 18:17-20 about the church with John 20:19-23 where the church was instigated.
What I do not understand is the following verse.
Philippians 2:7
But emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.
We do know that Jesus gave up eternal life, since He died on the cross.
Jesus becomes a man, yes, the problem is that, Jesus was not just a man. Jesus was the messiah.
The messiah is God with us, according to messianic prophecy.
Me change the scripture below.
Philippians 2:7
But emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born AS THE MESSIAH.
Me fix that problem.
Philippians 2:7
But emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.
We do know that Jesus gave up eternal life, since He died on the cross.
Jesus becomes a man, yes, the problem is that, Jesus was not just a man. Jesus was the messiah.
The messiah is God with us, according to messianic prophecy.
Me change the scripture below.
Philippians 2:7
But emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born AS THE MESSIAH.
Me fix that problem.
No. Jesus did not give up eternal life. He is the Resurrection and the Life.
And even though kenosis literally means "emptied himself" it must not be applied as such. But Christ "made Himself of no reputation" by setting aside His divine prerogatives and privileges and voluntarily becoming totally subject to the Father's will. He became "the Servant" of God the Father while on earth. So now the Father has exalted Him above all.
And even though kenosis literally means "emptied himself" it must not be applied as such. But Christ "made Himself of no reputation" by setting aside His divine prerogatives and privileges and voluntarily becoming totally subject to the Father's will. He became "the Servant" of God the Father while on earth. So now the Father has exalted Him above all.
Jesus had power as God During His Earthly Ministry and He used that Power:
1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
Please take note that this was said in context after Jesus healed the man at the pool of Bethesda. Jesus was also saying this when the Pharisees were upset that he did this healing on the Sabbath. So when Jesus says He can raise the dead, like the Father can, He is laying claim to ownership to this miracle He just did. Yes, Jesus did not bring this man at the pool back from the dead. But he did make his legs that were dead to come back alive and He also no doubt had led this man to trust in Him (Which is spiritual life). So this is an example of Jesus acting on behalf of his own power. Jesus does nothing of Himself alone without the Father. Yet, Jesus said that what He sees the Father do (like healing miracles), He also can do likewise (See: John 5:19).
2. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
This is clearly an act of God here. Only God can truly absolve sin in regard to our salvation and give us eternal life. No man could ever do this. So clearly Jesus is exercising His divine power as God on Earth. There are several examples of Scripture forgiving others their sins (Which is clearly a divine act or power of God alone). Jesus also extended eternal life to others by pointing to Himself. Only God can truly have this power.
3 Jesus had power to take on our sins & Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
Jesus took away the sins of the world by His death. Only God could do this. Jesus took on our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane in His body. He sweat great drops of blood in this process. No human could do this. Only God could. God is our Savior and not some mere man. Yes, Jesus had a flesh and blood body. No doubt about it. But no mere man has any power for such a task. Only God could truly have the power and strength to carry and take away our sin. In other words, man cannot resist all of his own sin of his own power, and yet for a man to take on the whole sins of the world? Not possible by the strength or power of some mere man alone. Truly the divine power of the eternal Word was at work here.
4. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today. Meaning, Jesus can be in His spirit among other believers who went away to some other location. Remember, God is Omnipresent. Jesus can be anywhere in His spirit as He desires because He is God. No man has such a power or ability. Only God has this ability. This power must have been exercised because if believers were gathered in His name when Jesus was not around before the cross, He was there with them (just as He said).
5. Jesus can make His home or abode inside of us if we keep His commandments (John 14:15). This is a part of His divine power and or abilities as God. Humans born to two parents cannot make their homes inside other people. Jesus did not say he would only do this after His resurrection, either. He said it to those around Him and therefore Jesus would have exercised this power because some follower of His would have strived to keep His commands.
6 “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.” (John 2:11). This was a direct statement. Meaning, Christ’s miracle at the wedding of Cana manifested His glory. This was his first miracle done by Jesus, and it was a part of His showing forth His deity as God. The apostle John did not say that the Lord Jesus manifested the Holy Spirit’s glory, but His own glory. So when Jesus turned water into wine, it was an act that manifested His own power as the Son of God.
7. ”And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” (John 14:13-14). This was said by Jesus before the cross, and answering prayers is definitely a divine act of God. Please pay close attention to what Jesus said. He said, “I will do it“ in reference to answering prayer. So if a person prays for a healing in His name, he will do it. He will be the One who will heal them and do it.
1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
Please take note that this was said in context after Jesus healed the man at the pool of Bethesda. Jesus was also saying this when the Pharisees were upset that he did this healing on the Sabbath. So when Jesus says He can raise the dead, like the Father can, He is laying claim to ownership to this miracle He just did. Yes, Jesus did not bring this man at the pool back from the dead. But he did make his legs that were dead to come back alive and He also no doubt had led this man to trust in Him (Which is spiritual life). So this is an example of Jesus acting on behalf of his own power. Jesus does nothing of Himself alone without the Father. Yet, Jesus said that what He sees the Father do (like healing miracles), He also can do likewise (See: John 5:19).
2. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
This is clearly an act of God here. Only God can truly absolve sin in regard to our salvation and give us eternal life. No man could ever do this. So clearly Jesus is exercising His divine power as God on Earth. There are several examples of Scripture forgiving others their sins (Which is clearly a divine act or power of God alone). Jesus also extended eternal life to others by pointing to Himself. Only God can truly have this power.
3 Jesus had power to take on our sins & Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
Jesus took away the sins of the world by His death. Only God could do this. Jesus took on our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane in His body. He sweat great drops of blood in this process. No human could do this. Only God could. God is our Savior and not some mere man. Yes, Jesus had a flesh and blood body. No doubt about it. But no mere man has any power for such a task. Only God could truly have the power and strength to carry and take away our sin. In other words, man cannot resist all of his own sin of his own power, and yet for a man to take on the whole sins of the world? Not possible by the strength or power of some mere man alone. Truly the divine power of the eternal Word was at work here.
4. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today. Meaning, Jesus can be in His spirit among other believers who went away to some other location. Remember, God is Omnipresent. Jesus can be anywhere in His spirit as He desires because He is God. No man has such a power or ability. Only God has this ability. This power must have been exercised because if believers were gathered in His name when Jesus was not around before the cross, He was there with them (just as He said).
5. Jesus can make His home or abode inside of us if we keep His commandments (John 14:15). This is a part of His divine power and or abilities as God. Humans born to two parents cannot make their homes inside other people. Jesus did not say he would only do this after His resurrection, either. He said it to those around Him and therefore Jesus would have exercised this power because some follower of His would have strived to keep His commands.
6 “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.” (John 2:11). This was a direct statement. Meaning, Christ’s miracle at the wedding of Cana manifested His glory. This was his first miracle done by Jesus, and it was a part of His showing forth His deity as God. The apostle John did not say that the Lord Jesus manifested the Holy Spirit’s glory, but His own glory. So when Jesus turned water into wine, it was an act that manifested His own power as the Son of God.
7. ”And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” (John 14:13-14). This was said by Jesus before the cross, and answering prayers is definitely a divine act of God. Please pay close attention to what Jesus said. He said, “I will do it“ in reference to answering prayer. So if a person prays for a healing in His name, he will do it. He will be the One who will heal them and do it.
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Is anyone else an idealist? I am. It gets me in trouble sometimes because I do not celebrate many of the half-measures that make others excited. Many mistake my non-excitement as uncaring or aloofness.
BUT, one advantage of my nature is that it gives me insight into legal things, decrees and things of the Kingdom of God. God deals in absolutes especially when His nature, conduct, and council are concerned. He has no guile: He is content to tell it like it is. Unlike politicians who govern by the consent of the people (in the U.S.) God does not seek the consent of anyone. He simply tells us the truth. It is up to us to believe it or not.
When Jesus said “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner" He was making such a bonafide decree. It was a brief outline of the foundation of the Kingdom of God.
The Son, in order to properly represent the Father in all things, refused to choose anything else BUT to only do what He saw the Father doing. Such a son, the perfect Son of God, could only represent the Father in this way. Certainly, he could choose otherwise, He could ask the Father for legions of angels to fight for Him (Matthew 26) but He could not do this AND AT THE SAME TIME do "only what He saw His Father doing."
Our conclusion is this: when we behold Him we behold the Father. This is how the Father chose to reveal Himself to man: through His only begotten Son; the only Son who represented God perfectly in the earth. We saw none of Jesus in Jesus, we only saw the Father and what the Father was doing. By Him (Jesus) and Him alone we may know God (our Father).
BUT, one advantage of my nature is that it gives me insight into legal things, decrees and things of the Kingdom of God. God deals in absolutes especially when His nature, conduct, and council are concerned. He has no guile: He is content to tell it like it is. Unlike politicians who govern by the consent of the people (in the U.S.) God does not seek the consent of anyone. He simply tells us the truth. It is up to us to believe it or not.
When Jesus said “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner" He was making such a bonafide decree. It was a brief outline of the foundation of the Kingdom of God.
The Son, in order to properly represent the Father in all things, refused to choose anything else BUT to only do what He saw the Father doing. Such a son, the perfect Son of God, could only represent the Father in this way. Certainly, he could choose otherwise, He could ask the Father for legions of angels to fight for Him (Matthew 26) but He could not do this AND AT THE SAME TIME do "only what He saw His Father doing."
Our conclusion is this: when we behold Him we behold the Father. This is how the Father chose to reveal Himself to man: through His only begotten Son; the only Son who represented God perfectly in the earth. We saw none of Jesus in Jesus, we only saw the Father and what the Father was doing. By Him (Jesus) and Him alone we may know God (our Father).
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So do you believe Jesus was claiming ownership as the Son of God to the healing of the man at the pool of Bethesda by His statement in John 5:21?
Or do you think He was operating by the Father or Spirit in this instance?
While I believe Jesus did miracles by the Father and Spirit at other times, I believe in this instance, it was Jesus who healed the man at the pool of Bethesda.
Or do you think He was operating by the Father or Spirit in this instance?
While I believe Jesus did miracles by the Father and Spirit at other times, I believe in this instance, it was Jesus who healed the man at the pool of Bethesda.
This is why it is difficult for you to understand this topic: the idea of "ownership" is grounded in a terrestrial understanding. So, when the will of Jesus is broached, it's like trying to fit Kingdom of God realities into earthly ideas. It doesn't work that way.
The Kingdom of God is about representation and, for things, stewardship. Why? Because the owner of all is God and the ultimate standard is God Himself. When God owns all, a discussion of ownership is moot. The origin of all things is God.
Jesus "only did what He saw His Father doing". This is the foundation of the Kingdom of God. Those who claim to represent God will only do what God is doing. By this principle, Jesus gave up His life for us. In fact, this is the manner in which He gave up His life and this occurred before He died on the cross. Certainly, the cross was part of His journey, but before the cross, Jesus gave up the right to govern His own life. He surrendered that right to the Father. This is what made Him "the only begotten Son". Because of this (Jesus only doing what His Father was doing) the Father conveyed the right to represent Him in all things to Christ Jesus. This is why one cannot say they receive the Father and simultaneously reject the Son. The Father has decided that only through the Son may one come to the Father. This is the absolute. The ideal of Heaven and its Kingdom.
To carry this further and to keep it within the boundaries of Kingdom understanding, Christ sends us in the same manner the Father sent Him: as representatives. "As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you" We, then, are beholden to the Son. Only by surrendering our own will may we participate in the benefits and power of the Kingdom. This is how, like Jesus, we become living sacrifices. Our standard of calling is the same standard of calling placed upon Jesus: Jesus surrendered His own will to the Father now, as Christ Jesus, we are called to surrender our will to Christ ("As the Father sent me, so I am sending you"). In this, there is no schism between the Son and the Father NOR is there schism between us and Christ, if we are led by the Spirit and not by the flesh.
At the end of the coming epoch this will be the reality:
"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
The ultimate reality of everything is God the Father. If we are given any measure of power it is by God the Father that we receive it. The Son has been given the right to dispense anything the Father has but ultimately all is His (the Father's). We can be assured, if we receive anything from the Son, whatever we receive will reflect the nature of God the Father.
The Kingdom of God is about representation and, for things, stewardship. Why? Because the owner of all is God and the ultimate standard is God Himself. When God owns all, a discussion of ownership is moot. The origin of all things is God.
Jesus "only did what He saw His Father doing". This is the foundation of the Kingdom of God. Those who claim to represent God will only do what God is doing. By this principle, Jesus gave up His life for us. In fact, this is the manner in which He gave up His life and this occurred before He died on the cross. Certainly, the cross was part of His journey, but before the cross, Jesus gave up the right to govern His own life. He surrendered that right to the Father. This is what made Him "the only begotten Son". Because of this (Jesus only doing what His Father was doing) the Father conveyed the right to represent Him in all things to Christ Jesus. This is why one cannot say they receive the Father and simultaneously reject the Son. The Father has decided that only through the Son may one come to the Father. This is the absolute. The ideal of Heaven and its Kingdom.
To carry this further and to keep it within the boundaries of Kingdom understanding, Christ sends us in the same manner the Father sent Him: as representatives. "As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you" We, then, are beholden to the Son. Only by surrendering our own will may we participate in the benefits and power of the Kingdom. This is how, like Jesus, we become living sacrifices. Our standard of calling is the same standard of calling placed upon Jesus: Jesus surrendered His own will to the Father now, as Christ Jesus, we are called to surrender our will to Christ ("As the Father sent me, so I am sending you"). In this, there is no schism between the Son and the Father NOR is there schism between us and Christ, if we are led by the Spirit and not by the flesh.
At the end of the coming epoch this will be the reality:
"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
The ultimate reality of everything is God the Father. If we are given any measure of power it is by God the Father that we receive it. The Son has been given the right to dispense anything the Father has but ultimately all is His (the Father's). We can be assured, if we receive anything from the Son, whatever we receive will reflect the nature of God the Father.
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Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Who, being (Greek present participle, therefore "while being") in the form of God, thought (aorist deponent indicative, therefore a main verb and the action regarded as a single completed action) it not robbery to be equal with God [Or, considered not a mutiny to be keep on being (present infinitive) equal with God]:but rather (alla) made Himself of no reputation [Or, emptied Himself (aorist active indicative, the action being considered as a single completed action)], having received (lambOn: 2nd aorist active participle, therefore the action being seen as a single completed action in the past of the main verb "emptied Himself") the form of a servant, having been made (2nd aorist deponent passive, therefore regarded as a single completed action in the past of having received) in the likeness of men:and having been found (aorist passive participle, therefore regarded as a single completed action in the past of "taking the form of a servant", i.e.before "taking the form of a servant" and "emptying himself") in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, (aorist active indicative, therefore seen as a single completed action) having become (2nd aorist deponent participle, therefore considered as a single completed action in the past of "humbled himself") obedient, until (mechri) death, even the death of the cross.
So the order of events here is: while being in the form of God He did not consider a mutiny to keep on being equal with God...
But rather, [while being in the form of God] he emptied himself after receiving the form of a servant, that is, after becoming in the likeness of men....
So, the Son was omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent while incarnating into the zygote created from Mary's ovum, and in this way He received the form of a servant and became in the likeness of men. Then, once the Son was in the ovum in the form of a servant and in the likeness of men, then he emptied Himself in some way. I would suggest He surrendered His omni abilities in order to experience the challenges of being a would-be-righteous limited human in a fallen world, so that He could be made a faithful and merciful High Priest, as per Heb.2:17. Jesus was an uncreated person/centre of consciousness with memories of His past existence as creator formerly havig omni abilities, but temporarily not having those past abilities.
Then, after being found in fashion (schEma: as comprising everything in a person which strikes the sense: the figure, discourse bearing, actions manner of life etc.) as a man, i.e. after becoming fully formed and born as a human being), He humbled Himself, but this was not until he had first become obedient. Then after having become obedient, He humbled Himself, until His death on a cross.
So the order of events here is: while being in the form of God He did not consider a mutiny to keep on being equal with God...
But rather, [while being in the form of God] he emptied himself after receiving the form of a servant, that is, after becoming in the likeness of men....
So, the Son was omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent while incarnating into the zygote created from Mary's ovum, and in this way He received the form of a servant and became in the likeness of men. Then, once the Son was in the ovum in the form of a servant and in the likeness of men, then he emptied Himself in some way. I would suggest He surrendered His omni abilities in order to experience the challenges of being a would-be-righteous limited human in a fallen world, so that He could be made a faithful and merciful High Priest, as per Heb.2:17. Jesus was an uncreated person/centre of consciousness with memories of His past existence as creator formerly havig omni abilities, but temporarily not having those past abilities.
Then, after being found in fashion (schEma: as comprising everything in a person which strikes the sense: the figure, discourse bearing, actions manner of life etc.) as a man, i.e. after becoming fully formed and born as a human being), He humbled Himself, but this was not until he had first become obedient. Then after having become obedient, He humbled Himself, until His death on a cross.
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