Daniel 9 Already Fulfilled

[GaryA]

The chronology of events in the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse is greatly simplified by the two charts on this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

The main chart shows the alignment of verses in the three accounts while the 'Chronological Order' chart below the main chart shows the order of events in history.

 

[PaulThomson]

Totally incorrect. Since whatever you said did not FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION or result in AN END OF SINS (seen Dan 9:24) you are seriously mistaken. What the sacrifice of Christ did was to make eternal life available to all mankind. And only a small number has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. To bring in EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS is to literally establish that on the earth. That can only happen after the Second Coming of Christ. And I have already quoted Scriptures to support this.

The only part you highlighted was the one I addressed: "to bring in 'oLaM righteousness. . Now you are introducing two more items from the list in Dan 9:24-27 .

The word introduce etymologically means to lead in, from the Latin intro (to the inside) and ducere (to lead). Introduction is just the beginning of a process, not the completion of it. You are reading too much into "to bring in/ to introduce 'oLaM righteousness." It means to introduce 'oLaM righteous into the world, not to completely fill the world with 'oLaM righteousness.

Now, did Jesus "make an end of sins" and "finish the transgression"?

Heb. 10:12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, he sat down at the right hand of God.
Heb. 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb. 10:17 And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more.

Heb. 9:15 And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of the age-lasting (aiOniou) inheritance.

 

[GaryA]

The chronology of events in the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse is greatly simplified by the two charts on this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

The main chart shows the alignment of verses in the three accounts while the 'Chronological Order' chart below the main chart shows the order of events in history.

Also, pay close attention to the 'Comments' column in/of/on the main chart.

 

[GaryA]

The 'these are the beginning of sorrows' equates to Matthew 24:7 / Mark 13:8ab / Luke 21:10-11a - no more and no less.

Matthew 24:9-13 and Mark 13:9-13 are not chronologically after the 'beginning of sorrows'.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The 'these are the beginning of sorrows' equates to Matthew 24:7 / Mark 13:8ab / Luke 21:10-11a - no more and no less.

Okay ^ , but do you believe Luke 21:11b is INCLUDED where v.12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (that is, the events coming "BEFORE" ALL these, speaking of the next portion / passage events [coming BEFORE ALL those])?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ So...


... that is, the SEQUENCE being (so far):


1) the passage following vv.10-11 must take place FIRST; then...

2) "the beginning of birth pangs" (vv.10-11a), AND ALSO v.11b's "and [G5037] fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (connected to/with [G5037], but distinct from, "the beginning of birth pangs"... kind of like how, when a woman is in labor, "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" are connected with the "birth PANGS" which continue on from the BEGINNING of them, see...)

 

[GaryA]

Okay ^ , but do you believe Luke 21:11b is INCLUDED where v.12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (that is, the events coming "BEFORE" ALL these, speaking of the next portion / passage events [coming BEFORE ALL those])?

The answer to your question may be clearly seen on the charts on that web page I posted - if you would just "give it a look", you probably could find the answer to many questions.

I believe the last part of that verse to be aligned with Luke 21:25-26 - much later chronologically than even the 'sorrows' group of things.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ as for the "te [G5037]" (used twice in Lk21:11... 11a and 11b), so "te... te...," note the following from BibleHub:

[quoting]

"4. τέ... τέ presents as parallel (or coordinate) the ideas or sentences which it connects, as... so (cf. kühner § 520; (Jelf, § 754, 3; Winers Grammar, § 53,4) ..."

[end quoting]


____________

So, to your latest point, I agree that v.11b comes sequentially AFTER vv.10-11a (BEGINNING of birth pangs);

but "ALL THESE" take place sequentially after the 70ad events that the next part of the passage says occurs "BEFORE ALL THESE" (ALL in vv.10-11a,b)

 

[GaryA]

^ So...


... that is, the SEQUENCE being (so far):


1) the passage following vv.10-11 must take place FIRST; then...

2) "the beginning of birth pangs" (vv.10-11a), AND ALSO v.11b's "and [G5037] fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (connected to/with [G5037], but distinct from, "the beginning of birth pangs"... kind of like how, when a woman is in labor, "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" are connected with the "birth PANGS" which continue on from the BEGINNING of them, see...)

Go look at the charts on the web page - the smaller chart below the main chart shows the chronology of the main chart.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

from BibleHub:
[quoting]

"4. τέ... τέ presents as parallel (or coordinate) the ideas or sentences which it connects, as... so (cf. kühner § 520; (Jelf, § 754, 3; Winers Grammar, § 53,4) ..."
[end quoting]

so, that's (the ideas in) v.11a [G5037 - te] and 11b [G5037 - te]






[both the beginning of birth pangs and the fearful sights and great signs there shall be from heaven, take place WITHIN the 7-yr period; the beginning of birth pangs being the seals at the START of the "in quickness" time period (7-yr period)]

 

[GaryA]

so, that's (the ideas in) v.11a [G5037 - te] and 11b [G5037 - te]

Nope.

I only took a quick glance at the Greek text (I am about to get off of CC; I would have to take a closer look later) - but, it definitely looks like 'te' is used in v11a in relation to the content of v11a and in v11b in relation to the content of v11b - no v11a-to-v11b 'boundary' is "crossed" in the 'grammar of the language' - they are separate. And, that is why it is used twice.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe the last part of that verse to be aligned with Luke 21:25-26 - much later chronologically than even the 'sorrows' group of things.

What I think you are saying is that, v.11b takes place MUCH LATER (like thousand[/s] years?) from that of vv.10-11a;

and what I am saying is that, they don't take place too terribly far apart from each other, but are rather more connected (both parts taking place WITHIN the future [7-yr] Tribulation period, what Rev1:1 [/1:19c/4:1] says "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS")--one being "the BEGINNING of birth pangs," whereas the other being the "birth pangs" which FOLLOW ON from the "BEGINNING" of them (just as "labor" for a woman with child... the INITIAL one coming upon her "SUDDENLY" [1Th5:1-3])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

and in v11b in relation to the content of v11b

huh?

I just showed (quoting from BibleHub), how "te... te" (11a... 11b--i.e. used twice, one after the other) "presents as parallel (or coordinate) the ideas or sentences which it connects, as... so"





I'm not suggesting this means they are IDENTICAL items, but that they "go together"... just as "beginning of birth pangs" AND "birth pangs" which follow on from those do (connected in such a way)...

i.e. they aren't things occurring MANY MANY DECADES APART from each other (which I think is your view), if that makes sense

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Now prove that "has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness" means the same thing as "to bring in 'oLaM righteousness" .

Doubt if I can prove it to you... but consider (what I read at BlueLetterBible) regarding the word "G6664" in Dan9:24 -

[quoting from BlueLetterBible]

"5. righteousness, as ethically right Job 35:2; Psalm 17:15; Psalm 45:8 [Psalm 45:7]; Proverbs 1:3; Proverbs 2:9; Ecclesiastes 7:15; Jeremiah 22:13; Ezekiel 3:20; Hosea 10:12 (read צ׳פְּרִי, so [image removed due to massive size] We Now); עלמים צ׳ Daniel 9:24; עשׂה צ׳ Isaiah 64:4 [Isaiah 64:5]; Psalm 119:121; פעל צ׳ Psalm 15:2; למד צ׳ Isaiah 26:6 [Isaiah 26:9] , Isaiah 26:10; בקּשׁ צ׳ Zephaniah 2:3; רדף צ׳ Isaiah 51:1; ידע צ׳ Isaiah 51:7."

-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h6664/kjv/wlc/0-1/

[end quoting; bold and size emphasis mine--see other linked verses ^ where this idea is expressed, meaning, "righteousness, as ethically right" (my point--in the future MK age, especially as this Dan9:24-27 time-prophecy pertains in particular to "Israel" and "Jerusalem,"... once the "DETERMINED UPON [them]" time-period concludes)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

regarding the word "G6664" in Dan9:24 -

EDIT to correct: should read "H6664"... obviously.

 

[Inquisitor]

Right... but not in the way you expect (seeing as you hold to Preterism, I think);

Luke 21 SEQUENTIALLY starts with the 70ad events ("BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs), per v.12;

moves from there (sequentially) to the "beginning of birth pangs" of vv.8-11 (same as found in Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8)... which are the Seals of Rev6 (and which Paul speaks of the INITIAL one of those ["birth pang [singular]"], in his words found in 1Th5:1-3, speaking of the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord"), and which "Seals" are included WITHIN "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]" per Rev1:1 [1:19c/4:1] and which "in quickness" time-period ends with Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19.




Additionally, as I've pointed out in past posts, Lk21:32's "This generation shall not pass away TILL ALL shall have taken place" must necessarily include the "of-lengthy-duration" items verse 24 had just referred to:

("and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN [Rv11:2] of the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled [at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 time-slot]" (not speaking of "the Church age," but Neb's "dream / statue / image" and "Gentile domination over Israel" (the toes of the statue, yet). The "TIMES" of the Gentiles not being the same meaning as the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]" (Rom11:25[,15]).



So,
Matthew 24:4-8 STARTS OUT with that which takes place [sequentially] "AFTER" the 70ad events, meaning, "the beginning of birth pangs" come SEQUENTIALLY AFTER the 70ad events... and then vv.9-14 come next... then after that comes the AOD (the one Dan12:11 "SET UP" spoke to, specifically), which is the kick-off point to the "GREAT tribulation" (1260 days remain until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, at that point--so ENDS at Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13 / parts of Dan9:24 / Rom11:27).



THANKS! Woo Hoo!

I don't hold to either Preterism or Partial Preterism.

Luke 21:32
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

One tough verse for most interpretations in Eschatology.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't hold to either Preterism or Partial Preterism.

Luke 21:32
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

One tough verse for most interpretations in Eschatology.

I don't see it as "tough"... like I said:

"... TILL ALL shall have taken place" must necessarily include the lengthy-duration-items that verse 24a,b had already JUST spoken of, including its own "UNTIL" matter.



["AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled"... which concludes at His future Second Coming to the earth (Rev11:2 speaks to this matter)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What it also seems like you're saying, however, is everything - including the destruction of Jerusalem - is the beginning of sorrows (or "birth pangs" to use similar terms).

No, I'm not saying that "the beginning of birth pangs" includes the destruction of Jerusalem in the events surrounding 70ad;




Instead, I'm saying that the events surrounding 70ad (including the destruction of Jerusalem--surrounded by armies, etc--vv.12-24a) MUST TAKE PLACE "BEFORE ALL THESE" items / events just spoken of in vv.10-11/BoBPs (and I include vv.8-9).







The events surrounding 70ad must take place "BEFORE ALL" of the beginning of birth pangs--it does not INCLUDE them


(which "BoBPs" are what KICK-OFF the far-future Trib yrs, equivalent to the SEALS of Rev6... which SEALS[/BoBPs] are INCLUDED in the "7-yr ['in quickness'] time-period" that immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19.
The "SEALS[/BoBPs]" commence FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and they are only "the BEGINNING" of birth pangs... MANY MORE "birth PANGS" FOLLOW ON from those "beginning" ones [which "BEGINNING" ones ARE the SEALS at the START of the future 7-yr Trib yrs])


Hope that helps clarify my view.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Especially with regard to Israel ("thy [Daniel's] people") and Jerusalem ("thy [Daniel's] holy city"), which is what the TIME-PROPHECY in Dan9:24[-27]'s 70 Weeks "ARE DETERMINED UPON"
[if the passage had meant a straight "490 years," it could have just stated "490 years," but it doesn't... it uses a very unique wording, and the context is sequentially laid out; Also, because the "70 YEARS" [captivity] summed to something close to 69 actual years, ascertained by which king reigned when, then the "70 WEEKS / 70 SEVENS" time-prophecy is factored similarly (and one of the reasons for the wording saying "70 sevens are determined upon...")]

That is correct. In the Hebrew it is 70 sevens or shabua, which which means a heptad. So a total 483 years (69 weeks of years) ended when "Messiah was cut off, but not for Himself". Daniel was not tasked with explaining the gap between the the 69th week and the 70th week, but the 70th week mentions the Antichrist ("the prince that shall come") and what happens in the middle of that week of seven years regarding the Abomination of Desolation.

But the gap was implied by Christ when He responded to the apostles just before His ascension (Acts 1:6-8): When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power..But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The kingdom will be restored to Israel after Daniel's prophecy in 9:24 is fulfilled and Christ establishes everlasting righteousness on earth. Before that the Antichrist will reign for 3 1/2 years. and there will also be many other events.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hopefully the following helps somewhat (in view of your [ @Yahshua ' ] earlier request to lay out each verse):



[Luke 21]

10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11And [G5037] great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences;
and [G5037] fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. ["Beginning of birth pangs / SEALS" in the far-future TRIB yrs ('in quickness'--7 yrs) AND "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" ALSO in the 7-yr Trib--These take place SEQUENTIALLY AFTER the following section, due to v.12's words... (in the bold)...]

12But before all these [ ^ ], they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
19In your patience possess ye your souls. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: [the events leading up to and surrounding 70ad]
24b and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. [continuing on from the 70ad events, and which aspect will not be CONCLUDED until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (Rev11:2 speaks to this--describing there the 2nd HALF of the future 7-yr period)]








[Matthew 24:4-8 STARTS OUT with "the beginning of birth pangs [the SEALS of Rev6]" and what follows on from those... This means that the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Matthew 24 is COMPLETELY DISTINCT, time-wise and other-wise, from that of the one in the 70ad events (shown above)...; Matt24:4-8 onward is equivalent to the SEALS-onward, i.e. ALL in the FUTURE 7-yr Trib yrs leading to to Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19]