The Security Of The Believer
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No. Salvation is by grace. Once you know Him, you obey as Christ lives in you.
Not sure you understand what happens in salvation. God takes away your heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh. The heart that was once desperately wicked has been replaced with one that aligns with the will of God. Further, the Spirit of God takes up residence in us and begins to will and do of His good pleasure.
In salvation, God makes a commitment to the individual that will never be broken. Eternal life is forever by definition. It cannot go away and have previously been eternal. And God isn't saving people to put them back under a failed covenant. But that's what you are pushing. Your version has God by grace forgiving our past sins and putting the onus back on us to to maintain our salvation...a new covenant for the past and an old covenant for the future. It didn't work the first time and it never will.
But worst of all, your paradigm robs God of the glory of salvation. Sure, you give God credit for initial salvation, but make yourself the producer of maintaining salvation. Jesus is the author of your salvation, but you are the finisher. God gets some credit, but so do you.
The truth is that if Jesus isn't both, He most likely isn't either. And you burden people with a weight that Jesus has promised to shoulder.
Not sure you understand what happens in salvation. God takes away your heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh. The heart that was once desperately wicked has been replaced with one that aligns with the will of God. Further, the Spirit of God takes up residence in us and begins to will and do of His good pleasure.
In salvation, God makes a commitment to the individual that will never be broken. Eternal life is forever by definition. It cannot go away and have previously been eternal. And God isn't saving people to put them back under a failed covenant. But that's what you are pushing. Your version has God by grace forgiving our past sins and putting the onus back on us to to maintain our salvation...a new covenant for the past and an old covenant for the future. It didn't work the first time and it never will.
But worst of all, your paradigm robs God of the glory of salvation. Sure, you give God credit for initial salvation, but make yourself the producer of maintaining salvation. Jesus is the author of your salvation, but you are the finisher. God gets some credit, but so do you.
The truth is that if Jesus isn't both, He most likely isn't either. And you burden people with a weight that Jesus has promised to shoulder.
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Im seeking always. But i still need your patience.
I dint know how you do it, it may be some star quality you have in being a good friend or trying to fix friendships, or it may be you keep your patience better than me in certain topics.
It's the title of the thread that's doing it, it really has appealed to me. Then to watch it dished, I don't think I would have handled it at all if you weren't here
Do you know how to block a thread without blocking the author of the thread ?.
I dint know how you do it, it may be some star quality you have in being a good friend or trying to fix friendships, or it may be you keep your patience better than me in certain topics.
It's the title of the thread that's doing it, it really has appealed to me. Then to watch it dished, I don't think I would have handled it at all if you weren't here
Do you know how to block a thread without blocking the author of the thread ?.
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I heard somewhere that counting backwards helps something something.
John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
That is, I get the idea that the Holy Spirit is a Pharisee when I read skewed takes on scripture. I get the idea that He is the one in my head saying, aha! you sinned! eww! yuck... I'm getting so sick of you... why, I ought a... but then... I know the Holy Spirit testifies about His mercy, His grace, His kindness, His love...His power...His glory...etc. etc. etc. etcetera.
John 10:25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
That is, the works that bear witness of HIM, are done in His Father's name, and likewise we do works in His name. Do we ever bear false witness in His name? hmm, that might happen but then, isn't that the definition of not working in His name...?
John 5:39
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
that is, you do not have life in the scriptures like you think, life is in HIM.
Oh hey, I noticed a peculiar pattern in counting backwards.... John 15:26 to John 10:25, the next would actually be John 5:24!
John 5:24
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
That is, I get the idea that the Holy Spirit is a Pharisee when I read skewed takes on scripture. I get the idea that He is the one in my head saying, aha! you sinned! eww! yuck... I'm getting so sick of you... why, I ought a... but then... I know the Holy Spirit testifies about His mercy, His grace, His kindness, His love...His power...His glory...etc. etc. etc. etcetera.
John 10:25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
That is, the works that bear witness of HIM, are done in His Father's name, and likewise we do works in His name. Do we ever bear false witness in His name? hmm, that might happen but then, isn't that the definition of not working in His name...?
John 5:39
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
that is, you do not have life in the scriptures like you think, life is in HIM.
Oh hey, I noticed a peculiar pattern in counting backwards.... John 15:26 to John 10:25, the next would actually be John 5:24!
John 5:24
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
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Yeah most everyone is really annoyed with you right now, but truth is never popular. I'm praying that you remain steadfast despite the opposition!
Also know that all your effort was not for nothing. The word you've put forth from the Bible will not return void - I've already learned a lot from your posts! Others will be built up by them too when they do a search and your posts come up. They will reach the right people that love God and His truth.
May God bless you and your family!
🌼
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Yeah most everyone is really annoyed with you right now, but truth is never popular. I'm praying that you remain steadfast despite the opposition!
Also know that all your effort was not for nothing. The word you've put forth from the Bible will not return void - I've already learned a lot from your posts! Others will be built up by them too when they do a search and your posts come up. They will reach the right people that love God and His truth.
May God bless you and your family!
🌼
Also know that all your effort was not for nothing. The word you've put forth from the Bible will not return void - I've already learned a lot from your posts! Others will be built up by them too when they do a search and your posts come up. They will reach the right people that love God and His truth.
May God bless you and your family!
🌼
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All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no good fruit at all are not truly converted. Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)
The point here is that a branch (believer) can be IN JESUS (which is by faith - Romans 5:1-2) and yet they did not bear fruit and thus… they are taken away. The result of being taken away is verse 6. Meaning, if they are taken away, they are no longer abiding in Christ because of fruitlessness and they are cast forth into the fire to be burned.
John 15:6 says,
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
More eisegesis on your part. In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.
John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
Yes, good deeds.
More eisegesis on your part. The Bible tells us that true repentance will result in good deeds/fruit. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance. (Matthew 3:8) A fruitless branch being cast into the fire is not a loss of salvation. Nowhere do we find the specific words, "loss of salvation" in scripture. A lack of works demonstrates a lack of faith. (James 2:14) In regard to the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30, I already thoroughly covered this in post #837. - The Security Of The Believer - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
Authentic faith endures to the end and is not a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. For those with authentic faith who hold fast to the gospel and do not believe in vain, here is their guarantee. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.
*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
In regard to Jude 1:21, keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles that answers the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. We do this by building ourselves up in our most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Nothing there about keep yourself saved from your surface reading.
Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
CONTINUED...
John 15:6 says,
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.
John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
Yes, good deeds.
More eisegesis on your part. The Bible tells us that true repentance will result in good deeds/fruit. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance. (Matthew 3:8) A fruitless branch being cast into the fire is not a loss of salvation. Nowhere do we find the specific words, "loss of salvation" in scripture. A lack of works demonstrates a lack of faith. (James 2:14) In regard to the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30, I already thoroughly covered this in post #837. - The Security Of The Believer - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
Authentic faith endures to the end and is not a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. For those with authentic faith who hold fast to the gospel and do not believe in vain, here is their guarantee. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.
*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
In regard to Jude 1:21, keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles that answers the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. We do this by building ourselves up in our most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Nothing there about keep yourself saved from your surface reading.
Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
CONTINUED...
Revelation 2:10 is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there!
In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death. Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death no matter how so-called faithfulness they set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain attempt to receive salvation based on works.
Who said anything about a one-time moment of faith? That's not authentic faith. That's a shallow, temporary belief.
That is the demonstrative evidence of authentic faith. Continuing to trust in works for salvation is not being faithful. It's being faithless.
I already covered this. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No (good) fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Self-attached dead branches (like Judas Iscariot) did not bear good fruit.
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death. Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death no matter how so-called faithfulness they set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain attempt to receive salvation based on works.
- It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the grace of God, in the faith, in his goodness demonstrate thereby that they are genuine believers.
Who said anything about a one-time moment of faith? That's not authentic faith. That's a shallow, temporary belief.
That is the demonstrative evidence of authentic faith. Continuing to trust in works for salvation is not being faithful. It's being faithless.
I already covered this. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No (good) fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Self-attached dead branches (like Judas Iscariot) did not bear good fruit.
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
Sad indeed. If the title of a book starts with "salvation by works" then I don't need to read 300 pages of eisegesis to know that the book is flawed. Error begets more error. People who write long-winded posts seek to drown out others and discourage them from responding because it would take a long time to respond to a 300-page novel. Such people are not really hear to listen, discuss and consider. They are only interested in shoving their biased beliefs and eisegesis down everyone else's throat. These types of people are self-promoters who absolutely must have the last word in any argument and anything that you say to them after that is the beginning of a new argument.
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Those cause me to think of this.
It's good we think on these things at any rate. "The vine in me that bears no fruit" that is taken away would be considered a "sucker" in the horticultural circles. And these are a kind of metaphoric poison ivy, growing on an oak, with no chance of producing acorns.
It's good we think on these things at any rate. "The vine in me that bears no fruit" that is taken away would be considered a "sucker" in the horticultural circles. And these are a kind of metaphoric poison ivy, growing on an oak, with no chance of producing acorns.
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Do wolves preach the true gospel or a false gospel? Is promoting a false gospel good or evil? Your goal is to get people to only trust in Jesus Christ for salvation (initially) then afterwards, get them to trust in their works at the back door for salvation. That is not salvation through faith, but salvation by faith and works, which is a "different" gospel. Your ultimate goal is to get people to embrace this "different" gospel that culminates in "works-righteousness" which stems from self-righteousness.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Paul explains why people don't believe the gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
I have already engaged you numerous times before in the past on Christian Chat, Christian Forums and on the Christianity Board as well. Nothing I say or that anyone else says ever gets through to you at all. Relentlessly bombarding people with your endless arguments from your 300-page novel is not agreeing to disagree in love and respect. You are obsessed with winning your arguments at all costs. In all of my years as a member of multiple Christian forum sites, I have only met one other person like you who bombards people with a 300-page novel response and who must have the last word in any argument and that is "LoveGodsWord." You know who he is.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Paul explains why people don't believe the gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
I have already engaged you numerous times before in the past on Christian Chat, Christian Forums and on the Christianity Board as well. Nothing I say or that anyone else says ever gets through to you at all. Relentlessly bombarding people with your endless arguments from your 300-page novel is not agreeing to disagree in love and respect. You are obsessed with winning your arguments at all costs. In all of my years as a member of multiple Christian forum sites, I have only met one other person like you who bombards people with a 300-page novel response and who must have the last word in any argument and that is "LoveGodsWord." You know who he is.
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A Parable is a story for illustration, it is a picture type. It is not viewed to be literal in the sense though it signifies moral lessons applied generally. Let’s take for example the Parable of the Talent.
The story resembles that the Lord has its own servants. The first received five talents (money), the second, two talents, and the other with one talent. To cut it short, the first two gained both rewards while the one who received one talent hid it in the ground and gained no reward and was cast in the “OUTER DARKNESS”.
What will this illustrate then?
Assuming it is Hell, still, this does not about the unfaithful sons and daughters of God including saved people (servants) who have been cast away but rather the unsaved person. When his lord heard his report, the unsaved were degraded by calling him not only slothful but wicked in the first place. Again, if the degradation was based on the result of his work, then it follows, that he is called only a slothful servant but in the first place, he was wicked or unrighteous for he was so.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant,
The story resembles that the Lord has its own servants. The first received five talents (money), the second, two talents, and the other with one talent. To cut it short, the first two gained both rewards while the one who received one talent hid it in the ground and gained no reward and was cast in the “OUTER DARKNESS”.
What will this illustrate then?
- First, we need to know the fact that this never refers to his sons as heirs but servants as hired ones. V.14
- Secondly, both the two who have been rewarded and can enter the celebration can refer to those who have been “good” as the Lord is good and were saved through faith. Not only this saved servant is good but was faithful.
- Thirdly, the last servant is not saved at all. The good Lord stated that he was “wicked” and unfruitful/unfaithful. The general application is that their kind of works reveal them as if we see anyone by their fruit.
Assuming it is Hell, still, this does not about the unfaithful sons and daughters of God including saved people (servants) who have been cast away but rather the unsaved person. When his lord heard his report, the unsaved were degraded by calling him not only slothful but wicked in the first place. Again, if the degradation was based on the result of his work, then it follows, that he is called only a slothful servant but in the first place, he was wicked or unrighteous for he was so.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant,
Yeah most everyone is really annoyed with you right now, but truth is never popular. I'm praying that you remain steadfast despite the opposition!
Also know that all your effort was not for nothing. The word you've put forth from the Bible will not return void - I've already learned a lot from your posts! Others will be built up by them too when they do a search and your posts come up. They will reach the right people that love God and His truth.
May God bless you and your family!
🌼
Also know that all your effort was not for nothing. The word you've put forth from the Bible will not return void - I've already learned a lot from your posts! Others will be built up by them too when they do a search and your posts come up. They will reach the right people that love God and His truth.
May God bless you and your family!
🌼
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