The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The first sentence in John 3:18 are the "whosoever's" in John 3:16. the rest of verse 18 are the natural men, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, that receives not the things of God.
Salvation, according to Strong's concordance means "a deliverance". The inspired scriptures are written as instructions as to how God wants his elect, who have been born again, to live their lives as they sojourn here in earth.
Salvation, according to Strong's concordance means "a deliverance". The inspired scriptures are written as instructions as to how God wants his elect, who have been born again, to live their lives as they sojourn here in earth.
... so now you want me to believe that the person in Luke 11:13 who asks his or her Heavenly Father for the Holy Spirit, he or she is asking for something he or she already has???your house of cards falls apart when scrutinized under the full light and scope of Scripture, ForestGreenCook.
you think God was speaking to remnant believers of the house of Israel?
fyi, ForestGreenCook, God was speaking to unbelievers. God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. period.
Here are more verses:
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Ezekiel 18:
21 But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
1 Timothy 2:
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
.
-
1
- Show all
no, brightfame52, I do not deny Scripture.
What I deny is your manipulation of Scripture in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.
Here is what you said, brightfame52:
Romans 7:4 does not state that He "was raised from the dead because of our Justification".
You know it. I know it. Everyone who reads Scripture knows that is not what Romans 7:4 says.
You are more interested in re-writing Scripture to align with your dogma than you are interested in comprehending what the Author of Scripture has written.
You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
... the one who is "an adversary to the truth" of Scripture is the one who continuously manipulates what is written in Scripture as if the Author of Scripture did not know what He was writing when He wrote it.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
What I deny is your manipulation of Scripture in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.
Here is what you said, brightfame52:
Romans 7:4 does not state that He "was raised from the dead because of our Justification".
You know it. I know it. Everyone who reads Scripture knows that is not what Romans 7:4 says.
You are more interested in re-writing Scripture to align with your dogma than you are interested in comprehending what the Author of Scripture has written.
You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
... the one who is "an adversary to the truth" of Scripture is the one who continuously manipulates what is written in Scripture as if the Author of Scripture did not know what He was writing when He wrote it.READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
quit conflating what is written in John 3 with what is written in 1 Cor 2:14.
John 3 speaks of the gospel.
1 Cor 2:14 speaks of the deeper things of God.
John 3:18 tells us why unbelievers are condemned:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18 does not state that they cannot understand. John 3:18 states they do not believe. period.
1 Cor 2:14 has been explained to you many, many times. Did you read what PaulThomson explained to you here? You still reject the truth of 1 Cor 2:14 because you choose to not believe ... you have a choice, just as all mankind has a choice. And your choice is to not believe. And God will sort out all choices at the proper time.
... God wrote Scripture to all mankind ... whether born again or not. Your limited view does not limit God's intent in providing Scripture to mankind.
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
God has openly proclaimed ... He has not secretly hid His salvation from view.
.
John 3 speaks of the gospel.
1 Cor 2:14 speaks of the deeper things of God.
John 3:18 tells us why unbelievers are condemned:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18 does not state that they cannot understand. John 3:18 states they do not believe. period.
1 Cor 2:14 has been explained to you many, many times. Did you read what PaulThomson explained to you here? You still reject the truth of 1 Cor 2:14 because you choose to not believe ... you have a choice, just as all mankind has a choice. And your choice is to not believe. And God will sort out all choices at the proper time.
... God wrote Scripture to all mankind ... whether born again or not. Your limited view does not limit God's intent in providing Scripture to mankind.Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
God has openly proclaimed ... He has not secretly hid His salvation from view.
.
quit conflating what is written in John 3 with what is written in 1 Cor 2:14.
John 3 speaks of the gospel.
1 Cor 2:14 speaks of the deeper things of God.
John 3:18 tells us why unbelievers are condemned:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18 does not state that they cannot understand. John 3:18 states they do not believe. period.
1 Cor 2:14 has been explained to you many, many times. Did you read what PaulThomson explained to you here? You still reject the truth of 1 Cor 2:14 because you choose to not believe ... you have a choice, just as all mankind has a choice. And your choice is to not believe. And God will sort out all choices at the proper time.
... God wrote Scripture to all mankind ... whether born again or not. Your limited view does not limit God's intent in providing Scripture to mankind.
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
God has openly proclaimed ... He has not secretly hid His salvation from view.
.
John 3 speaks of the gospel.
1 Cor 2:14 speaks of the deeper things of God.
John 3:18 tells us why unbelievers are condemned:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18 does not state that they cannot understand. John 3:18 states they do not believe. period.
1 Cor 2:14 has been explained to you many, many times. Did you read what PaulThomson explained to you here? You still reject the truth of 1 Cor 2:14 because you choose to not believe ... you have a choice, just as all mankind has a choice. And your choice is to not believe. And God will sort out all choices at the proper time.
... God wrote Scripture to all mankind ... whether born again or not. Your limited view does not limit God's intent in providing Scripture to mankind.Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
God has openly proclaimed ... He has not secretly hid His salvation from view.
.
... I told you here what I deny and I told you here to "move on" because it is clear that your intent is to provoke ... and you have now made it crystal clear that I am correct.Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:14 speaks of the things of the Spirit of God. That is not referring to Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) which Paul taught to the church at Corinth.
The things of the Spirit of God in 1 Cor 2:14 refers to the wisdom of God in a mystery (1 Cor 2:7) which Paul was able to discuss among them that are perfect (perfect meaning those who were more spiritually mature – 1 Cor 2:6).
1 Cor 2:1-5 tells us the things Paul taught to those who were not yet born again and those who were born again yet still young in faith:
1 Corinthians 2:
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
In vs 2, Jesus Christ, and Him crucified is the gospel. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). Once a person believes the gospel, he/she is born again; however, those still young in faith are to feed on the sincere milk of the word that [they] may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2).
In 1 Cor 2:6 and following, Paul tells us about the things which he taught those who were more spiritually mature ... the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom.
It is these deep things of God (1 Cor 2:10) to which 1 Cor 2:14 refers when it speaks of the natural man's inability to receive:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I do not believe the gospel is difficult for natural man to comprehend. The Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried and rose again the third day. That is not a difficult concept. The natural man hears the gospel and he/she either believes the gospel and is born again or he/she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) and is not born again.
The wisdom of God in a mystery which if the princes of this world had known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:6-8), is a more complex spiritual truth which is addressed in 1 Cor 2:14 which the natural man does not comprehend.
.
1 Cor 2:14 speaks of the things of the Spirit of God. That is not referring to Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) which Paul taught to the church at Corinth.
The things of the Spirit of God in 1 Cor 2:14 refers to the wisdom of God in a mystery (1 Cor 2:7) which Paul was able to discuss among them that are perfect (perfect meaning those who were more spiritually mature – 1 Cor 2:6).
1 Cor 2:1-5 tells us the things Paul taught to those who were not yet born again and those who were born again yet still young in faith:
1 Corinthians 2:
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
In vs 2, Jesus Christ, and Him crucified is the gospel. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). Once a person believes the gospel, he/she is born again; however, those still young in faith are to feed on the sincere milk of the word that [they] may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2).
In 1 Cor 2:6 and following, Paul tells us about the things which he taught those who were more spiritually mature ... the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom.
It is these deep things of God (1 Cor 2:10) to which 1 Cor 2:14 refers when it speaks of the natural man's inability to receive:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I do not believe the gospel is difficult for natural man to comprehend. The Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried and rose again the third day. That is not a difficult concept. The natural man hears the gospel and he/she either believes the gospel and is born again or he/she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) and is not born again.
The wisdom of God in a mystery which if the princes of this world had known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:6-8), is a more complex spiritual truth which is addressed in 1 Cor 2:14 which the natural man does not comprehend.
.
... I told you here what I deny and I told you here to "move on" because it is clear that your intent is to provoke ... and you have now made it crystal clear that I am correct.Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.
It made us dead to the Law !3
And lastly, we learn that the end of Christ's death which made us dead to the Law, ensured that we be married to another, that another being Him that was raised from the dead for our Justification, then causes us to bear fruit unto God "that[for the purpose that] we should bring forth fruit unto God."
Jesus said to the Church here Jn 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
This corresponds to what Paul wrote to the Church Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
What fruit ? The fruit of righteousness Phil 1:11
Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Heb 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 13:15
By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Our fruitfulness is actually Christ's our heads fruitfulness, fulfilling Jn 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Our fruitfulness makes Him Look Good and successful in that His death was fruitful !
And lastly, we learn that the end of Christ's death which made us dead to the Law, ensured that we be married to another, that another being Him that was raised from the dead for our Justification, then causes us to bear fruit unto God "that[for the purpose that] we should bring forth fruit unto God."
Jesus said to the Church here Jn 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
This corresponds to what Paul wrote to the Church Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
What fruit ? The fruit of righteousness Phil 1:11
Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Heb 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 13:15
By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Our fruitfulness is actually Christ's our heads fruitfulness, fulfilling Jn 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Our fruitfulness makes Him Look Good and successful in that His death was fruitful !
Respectfully, I disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures.
Once a person is born, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, (Eph 2:1-5) they are "babes in Christ", They are in Christ and Christ in them. Once a person is born again, they have God's promise of an eternal inheritance (Eph 1:11).
Although we have been born again of the Spirit, we still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature, and do, at times, yield ourselves to the temptations of the world (Rom 7)which separates us from our fellowship with God, temporary, until we repent. We do not lose the promise of our eternal inheritance, just our fellowship with God temporary until we repent.
The babe in Christ's mind is focused on spiritual things, but he does understand the doctrine of Christ (Isaiah 28:9).
The natural man that has not been born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit cannot receive the things of the Spirit. Not the spiritual things that the mature born again christian can receive, nor the spiritual things that the babe in Christ, that are not mature, can receive.
The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not repent of breaking a spiritual law of God that he cannot understand.