The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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If you are referencing Eph 2:8, That faith is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, and is confirmed in Gal 2:16, as Jesus Christ's faith.
Spiritual faith is given to every believer at the time they are born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22). If they are a believer, then they are born again.
Spiritual faith is given to every believer at the time they are born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22). If they are a believer, then they are born again.
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I'm speaking to the issue of faith as it exists in scripture. Both you and @rogerg make reference to faith as a fruit when explaining faith in Ephesians 2:8. But fruit is grown. It happens over time. The faith of Galatians 5 is acquired in sanctification, and not salvation.
I was also distinguishing both from the gift of faith in 1 Corinthians 12. Like all gifts, it is to be employed for the edifying of the saints. It is also given by the Spirit, but it is not given to every believer.
I was also distinguishing both from the gift of faith in 1 Corinthians 12. Like all gifts, it is to be employed for the edifying of the saints. It is also given by the Spirit, but it is not given to every believer.
Fruit does not grow when it is already fully matured, which, through Christ alone, it has been made so. I think that
believing in Christ and in Christian doctrine increases over time as we are able to spiritually hear and comprehend the gospel,
but that comes from/by the faith given us.
"redemption" I believe, means redeemed/saved. So, by, and when, they were placed "in Christ Jesus" they were made both.
[1Co 1:30 KJV] 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
if someone is saved, then by that, they were sanctified, and if sanctified, then they were saved.
Were you thinking of a different kind of sanctification?
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
believing in Christ and in Christian doctrine increases over time as we are able to spiritually hear and comprehend the gospel,
but that comes from/by the faith given us.
"redemption" I believe, means redeemed/saved. So, by, and when, they were placed "in Christ Jesus" they were made both.
[1Co 1:30 KJV] 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
if someone is saved, then by that, they were sanctified, and if sanctified, then they were saved.
Were you thinking of a different kind of sanctification?
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
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Sure we are sanctified in the sense that we are set apart unto the Lord in salvation. But God is continually making us more and more into the image of Christ. There is an ongoing work of the Spirit that accomplishes this. 1 Thessalonians 4:3...God's will for every believer is their sanctification...No need to write this if it is already fully accomplished.
But my comments were concerning faith.
But my comments were concerning faith.
Not exactly following you - thought I addressed faith.
" Fruit does not grow when it is already fully matured, which, through Christ alone, it has been made so. I think that
believing in Christ and in Christian doctrine increases over time as we are able to spiritually hear and comprehend the gospel,
but that comes from/by the faith given us."
" Fruit does not grow when it is already fully matured, which, through Christ alone, it has been made so. I think that
believing in Christ and in Christian doctrine increases over time as we are able to spiritually hear and comprehend the gospel,
but that comes from/by the faith given us."
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Fruit has seasons of dormancy and often doesn't even appear for a time. If you ever plant an apple tree, don't expect your apple pie anytime too soon.
We don't have mature fruit at salvation. Do you love today in the same way as when you first believed? Are you more patient today than then? Are you more gentle now or then?
And I saw no mention of faith in your reply.
We don't have mature fruit at salvation. Do you love today in the same way as when you first believed? Are you more patient today than then? Are you more gentle now or then?
And I saw no mention of faith in your reply.
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Look again.
Faith comes from Christ - it is His faith that we are given upon salvation - and given fully completed at that time - fully mature.
True faith is not of us. What you refer to, I think, is believing and knowledge, not faith. Those grow over time, but their basis is in the
faith that we are given as a gift. That is pretty much what I said in my prior replies.
[Gal 2:16, 20 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ...
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Faith comes from Christ - it is His faith that we are given upon salvation - and given fully completed at that time - fully mature.
True faith is not of us. What you refer to, I think, is believing and knowledge, not faith. Those grow over time, but their basis is in the
faith that we are given as a gift. That is pretty much what I said in my prior replies.
[Gal 2:16, 20 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ...
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do believe His faith saves us...from faith to faith. But the operation of His life in us requires that it is Him living in us. And that is not accomplished for us. We have to learn to walk in it. We learn to put off the old man and to put on the new man.
If we possessed a fully mature faith upon believing, why do we still sin? Why do we doubt? Why do we fear? Why do we resist? These things do not please God, and so cannot be of faith because without faith it is impossible to please God.
In salvation we have faith in believing that we are under the wrath of God and that believing in Jesus is sufficient to assuage God's anger and grant us peace with Him. We don't suddenly believe all that Jesus believes. We do however have the mind of Christ which lends itself to finding out.
So,there is a faith given in salvation sufficient to salvation...Ephesians 2:8. There is faith that is the outcome of the Spirit working in us...Galatians 5:22-23. And there is faith given as a gift...1 Corinthians 12:9...that is given for the edification of the body. Their source is the same, but their operation and function are different.
If we possessed a fully mature faith upon believing, why do we still sin? Why do we doubt? Why do we fear? Why do we resist? These things do not please God, and so cannot be of faith because without faith it is impossible to please God.
In salvation we have faith in believing that we are under the wrath of God and that believing in Jesus is sufficient to assuage God's anger and grant us peace with Him. We don't suddenly believe all that Jesus believes. We do however have the mind of Christ which lends itself to finding out.
So,there is a faith given in salvation sufficient to salvation...Ephesians 2:8. There is faith that is the outcome of the Spirit working in us...Galatians 5:22-23. And there is faith given as a gift...1 Corinthians 12:9...that is given for the edification of the body. Their source is the same, but their operation and function are different.
Did Jesus Christ die for the sin of unbelief ? 2
Now the fact is, yes Christ died for ones unbelief if indeed He died for their sins, and again He did not die for everyones sins without exception, but He did only for a Chosen Remnant Eph 1:4, His Elect, or His Church Eph 5:25, or His Sheep opposed to the goats Jn 10:11,15, or Israel !
And those of us He did die for, our trespasses are not and cannot be charged/imputed against us 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
And unbelief is but one of many trespasses. Its the beginning inlet trespass of man in Adam as stated here Rom 5:15,17
15 But not as the offence/trespass, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence/trespass of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
17 For if by one man's offence/trespass death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)
The word offence paraptóma: is also the word for trespass in 2 Cor 5:19 and it means:
a falling away, lapse, slip, false step, trespass, sin.
Now we shall see that unbelief is a trespass a falling away from the Lord, that which national israel was guilty of, as well as Adam Ezk 15:6-8
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; As the vine tree among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so will I give the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
7 And I will set my face against them; they shall go out from one fire, and another fire shall devour them; and ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I set my face against them.
8 And I will make the land desolate, because they have committed a trespass, saith the Lord God.
Now notice God gives the cause of why He shall set His face against the inhabitants of jerusalem, Vs 8 because they have committed a trespass saith the Lord. Now the hebrew word here for trespass is maal and means:
an unfaithful or treacherous act, unfaithfulness (6), very unfaithful (1).
The main sin here is apostacy to idolatry which is unbelief, like what Paul says shall happen in the Latter days of the professing church 1 Tim 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,NAS
It was the sin/trespass that cut off national israel from covenent privileges as a nation Rom 11:20
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
That word unbelief means :
unbelief, unfaithfulness, distrust. And that the trespass of Ezk 15:8
And I will make the land desolate, because they have committed a trespass, saith the Lord GOD.
Again the word is maal and means:
1), unfaithful (3), unfaithful act (4), unfaithful deeds (1), unfaithfully (6), unfaithfulness (6), very unfaithful 45
Now the fact is, yes Christ died for ones unbelief if indeed He died for their sins, and again He did not die for everyones sins without exception, but He did only for a Chosen Remnant Eph 1:4, His Elect, or His Church Eph 5:25, or His Sheep opposed to the goats Jn 10:11,15, or Israel !
And those of us He did die for, our trespasses are not and cannot be charged/imputed against us 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
And unbelief is but one of many trespasses. Its the beginning inlet trespass of man in Adam as stated here Rom 5:15,17
15 But not as the offence/trespass, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence/trespass of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
17 For if by one man's offence/trespass death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)
The word offence paraptóma: is also the word for trespass in 2 Cor 5:19 and it means:
a falling away, lapse, slip, false step, trespass, sin.
Now we shall see that unbelief is a trespass a falling away from the Lord, that which national israel was guilty of, as well as Adam Ezk 15:6-8
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; As the vine tree among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so will I give the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
7 And I will set my face against them; they shall go out from one fire, and another fire shall devour them; and ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I set my face against them.
8 And I will make the land desolate, because they have committed a trespass, saith the Lord God.
Now notice God gives the cause of why He shall set His face against the inhabitants of jerusalem, Vs 8 because they have committed a trespass saith the Lord. Now the hebrew word here for trespass is maal and means:
an unfaithful or treacherous act, unfaithfulness (6), very unfaithful (1).
The main sin here is apostacy to idolatry which is unbelief, like what Paul says shall happen in the Latter days of the professing church 1 Tim 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,NAS
It was the sin/trespass that cut off national israel from covenent privileges as a nation Rom 11:20
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
That word unbelief means :
unbelief, unfaithfulness, distrust. And that the trespass of Ezk 15:8
And I will make the land desolate, because they have committed a trespass, saith the Lord GOD.
Again the word is maal and means:
1), unfaithful (3), unfaithful act (4), unfaithful deeds (1), unfaithfully (6), unfaithfulness (6), very unfaithful 45
@Cameron143
Hmm, so please tell me, what propitiated Gods wrath for a sinner, Christs blood or mans faith ?
Hmm, so please tell me, what propitiated Gods wrath for a sinner, Christs blood or mans faith ?
I believe that only through/by Him living within us, can it be brought-forth in us, and that is the only way it can happen to us. We learn, but do so only BECAUSE He has saved us and resides within us. Otherwise, we will never come to true spiritual knowledge/understanding. However, we do have to be edified/taught of Christian doctrine, through which, we increase in knowledge and believing. From that, those saved will gain a desire to conform to Christian doctrine, but they will understand that it comes from their salvation and faith and will not bring them salvation. The unsaved, on the other hand, will perceive it in the reverse - that they have to do them in order to become saved. That perception comes from being under law and not grace.
We do not possess a mature faith upon believing, we are believing BECAUSE of receiving Christ's perfect faith - His faith in us brings about our believing in Him.
To doubt, to fear, to resist, etc., are all human qualities. That we have them doesn't mean we aren't saved nor haven't been given faith as we all still "see through a glass darkly" and will continue to do so until the day of Christ.
That we have faith is God's work, not ours, and comes with being saved/born again - that also being His work.
No one can fully understand nor believe in all of the doctrines of Christianity immediately after salvation, and that is what gives rise to the concerns you mention, however, through the Holy Spirit, and by the edification of the saints by the saints, we do continue to grow over time in the knowledge of, and faith in, those doctrine.
It was Christ offering alone that brought peace between God and man: it reconciled saved man to God and God to saved man. The believing you mention is a proof of and a demonstration of that reconciliation, but not its cause. Everything that pertains to salvation has already been achieved by Christ on our behalf, nothing by man - we are but the recipients of it through the exceedingly great mercy and grace of God given unto those who in no way deserve it - it is fully a free gift.
We do not suddenly believe all that Jesus believes, nor have we been called to do so. Jesus is God and as God knows all. In this life at least, we cannot and will not be able to do the same.
The only faith central to salvation and under discussion is Christ's faith. Eph 2:8 and Gal 5:22 are speaking of that one single faith.
I think the result of the Spirit working within us, manifests itself in our believing. Christ's faith is imputed only once to those saved.
We do not possess a mature faith upon believing, we are believing BECAUSE of receiving Christ's perfect faith - His faith in us brings about our believing in Him.
To doubt, to fear, to resist, etc., are all human qualities. That we have them doesn't mean we aren't saved nor haven't been given faith as we all still "see through a glass darkly" and will continue to do so until the day of Christ.
That we have faith is God's work, not ours, and comes with being saved/born again - that also being His work.
No one can fully understand nor believe in all of the doctrines of Christianity immediately after salvation, and that is what gives rise to the concerns you mention, however, through the Holy Spirit, and by the edification of the saints by the saints, we do continue to grow over time in the knowledge of, and faith in, those doctrine.
It was Christ offering alone that brought peace between God and man: it reconciled saved man to God and God to saved man. The believing you mention is a proof of and a demonstration of that reconciliation, but not its cause. Everything that pertains to salvation has already been achieved by Christ on our behalf, nothing by man - we are but the recipients of it through the exceedingly great mercy and grace of God given unto those who in no way deserve it - it is fully a free gift.
We do not suddenly believe all that Jesus believes, nor have we been called to do so. Jesus is God and as God knows all. In this life at least, we cannot and will not be able to do the same.
The only faith central to salvation and under discussion is Christ's faith. Eph 2:8 and Gal 5:22 are speaking of that one single faith.
I think the result of the Spirit working within us, manifests itself in our believing. Christ's faith is imputed only once to those saved.
I agree with almost all you have written. But we've come full circle. The only point I was speaking to in my original post was the final point. Here I disagree. I believe the faith given at salvation is a gift and given in a singular expression for belief. The faith spoken of in Galatians is also given by Spirit but is fruit of His ongoing work in our lives and has many expressions.
Consider the life of Abraham. God approached him and spoke His word and Abraham believed and was saved. A one time event. But the just must walk by faith to please God. And while Abraham was indeed saved, he still walked by sight. He didn't always trust God. He lied about Sarah being his wife and later bore a child with Hagar. But by the time God asked him to sacrifice Isaac, he was ready to. What changed? Through the ongoing work of the Spirit and through his experiences, Abraham had learned to trust God and walk by faith and not by sight. As God as a gardener tended to Abraham, cutting off certain limbs and pruning others, He cultivated fruit in Abraham. This is what John 15 is all about. This is what I referred to earlier as sanctification. It is our ongoing relationship with God where He perfects us for His use.
We tend to think of Abraham as a great man of faith, and so he was. But he began just as we do...one step at a time.
Consider the life of Abraham. God approached him and spoke His word and Abraham believed and was saved. A one time event. But the just must walk by faith to please God. And while Abraham was indeed saved, he still walked by sight. He didn't always trust God. He lied about Sarah being his wife and later bore a child with Hagar. But by the time God asked him to sacrifice Isaac, he was ready to. What changed? Through the ongoing work of the Spirit and through his experiences, Abraham had learned to trust God and walk by faith and not by sight. As God as a gardener tended to Abraham, cutting off certain limbs and pruning others, He cultivated fruit in Abraham. This is what John 15 is all about. This is what I referred to earlier as sanctification. It is our ongoing relationship with God where He perfects us for His use.
We tend to think of Abraham as a great man of faith, and so he was. But he began just as we do...one step at a time.
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No, I don't think in Gen 15:6 we are told that (if I understand your point correctly).
Instead, I think Abraham was saved and given Christ's faith, from that, he believed and gave the glory to God. Gen 15:6 tells us, when compared against other like verses, that Christ's faith was imputed to him and given righteousness. From that faith he was able to realize/account that his believing and righteousness ultimately came from Christ, but not by Abraham's believing.
[Gen 15:6 KJV] 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
IOW, first "he": Abraham
second "he: Abraham
"him" the LORD
This is confirmed in Rom 4:9:
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Notice above, that faith reckoned to Abraham, which faith, gave him righteousness, and from that faith, he believed. We can know this because Christ's righteousness is imparted to man only through/by His faith:
[Rom 3:22 KJV] 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
If you notice in my prior post, I said that through the Holy Spirit after salvation we continue to learn of things spiritual
and to grow in spiritual knowledge and believing, which, as you call it, pruning. I agree with that, but that it comes from salvation.
Instead, I think Abraham was saved and given Christ's faith, from that, he believed and gave the glory to God. Gen 15:6 tells us, when compared against other like verses, that Christ's faith was imputed to him and given righteousness. From that faith he was able to realize/account that his believing and righteousness ultimately came from Christ, but not by Abraham's believing.
[Gen 15:6 KJV] 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
IOW, first "he": Abraham
second "he: Abraham
"him" the LORD
This is confirmed in Rom 4:9:
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Notice above, that faith reckoned to Abraham, which faith, gave him righteousness, and from that faith, he believed. We can know this because Christ's righteousness is imparted to man only through/by His faith:
[Rom 3:22 KJV] 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
If you notice in my prior post, I said that through the Holy Spirit after salvation we continue to learn of things spiritual
and to grow in spiritual knowledge and believing, which, as you call it, pruning. I agree with that, but that it comes from salvation.
You do understand that you just witnessed How the gospel truly works. And admitted that unbelievers can perceive it.
Faith alone in Christ alone and you shall be saved. Acts 16:31.
Even with that though.....you admitted that the unsaved perceive their need for salvation and Christ, just go about it in reverse in your understanding. I thought the carnal mind could see and hear NOTHING spiritually?
Faith alone in Christ alone and you shall be saved. Acts 16:31.
Even with that though.....you admitted that the unsaved perceive their need for salvation and Christ, just go about it in reverse in your understanding. I thought the carnal mind could see and hear NOTHING spiritually?
Since they think can achieve it by their actions, by that, they demonstrate that have no spiritual understanding.
That is precisely the problem with the natural, carnal, mind - it believes, that by a person's actions,
the requirements can be satisfied, and therefore, they cannot decern and are spiritually blind. Not until becoming
saved/born again will they ever be able to do so.
That is precisely the problem with the natural, carnal, mind - it believes, that by a person's actions,
the requirements can be satisfied, and therefore, they cannot decern and are spiritually blind. Not until becoming
saved/born again will they ever be able to do so.
Everything spiritual is the result of our spiritual birth. So if you want to characterize it that way I see no problem with that. And this is all owing to the grace of God. I was merely pointing out different operations of the Spirit in the application of faith. There is more to it, but as I don't seem to be able to communicate it well I'll stop where we are. They are subtle distinctions at this point.
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