Did God occupy any space before creation?
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We both agree that God is everywhere imminent within OUR cosmos' limited space-time continuum and also is external to our own space-time continuum filling the infinite space-time continuum that is inherent God's nature and which ?nvelopes ours but extends infinitely beyond the limits of ours.
But where is your proof that time and space per se, were created when our time-space cosmos was created? Where is your biblical proof that there is no other space and time beyond what is our present cosmos?
But where is your proof that time and space per se, were created when our time-space cosmos was created? Where is your biblical proof that there is no other space and time beyond what is our present cosmos?
Scrip[ture does say that He is the author of OUR cosmos' limited space-time continuum. Our cosmos has a beginning and an end. It is limited. But that does not imply there are no other space-time continua, does it? Nor does it imply that there is no infinite space-time continuum that our created space-time sits within.
I think you must have meant to say, "God is a Spirit, therefore He is not limited IN size or space. He is present in all of His creation. That is called "omnipresence".
No one believes God is limited by size or space. oh, maybe mormons do.
But in saying, "He is present in all of His creation," you are admitting He has size at least as big as His creation, which is my claim. And if God is spatial, he is also temporal: if He experiences having space, he also experiences having time. And God talks about Himself like this throughout scripture. He does not however anywhere deny having space and time.
No one believes God is limited by size or space. oh, maybe mormons do.
But in saying, "He is present in all of His creation," you are admitting He has size at least as big as His creation, which is my claim. And if God is spatial, he is also temporal: if He experiences having space, he also experiences having time. And God talks about Himself like this throughout scripture. He does not however anywhere deny having space and time.
I am admitting no such thing. God transcends His creation in every way, and it is as Spirit that He is present everywhere. But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him? (2 Chron 2:6)
Again you text makes my case, not yours. God's space extends beyond the cosmos' space. Hence, " the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him?" Like a glass cannot contain an ocean.
And if His Spirit is present EVERYWHERE, then His spirit must at least fill all our space-time continuum cosmos.
And if His Spirit is present EVERYWHERE, then His spirit must at least fill all our space-time continuum cosmos.
No. Something that doesn't exist cannot also be said to exist. You like the law of non-contradiction. Our time began when God created.
For the purposes of human redemption on Earth, no other creation is necessary. Or time. It's interesting to ponder, but we have no evidence currently of other creations or times. Neither is there any biblical references to such that have been revealed.
Does this preclude there from being any? No. God is sovereign. But I don't ever envision a time when we encounter something like the cantina seen in Star Wars, minus the violence.
For the purposes of human redemption on Earth, no other creation is necessary. Or time. It's interesting to ponder, but we have no evidence currently of other creations or times. Neither is there any biblical references to such that have been revealed.
Does this preclude there from being any? No. God is sovereign. But I don't ever envision a time when we encounter something like the cantina seen in Star Wars, minus the violence.
What is this "something that does not exist"? You say that we have no evidence that other creations or times exist, but science postulates, presumably based on some degree of evidence, that our time-space continuum is lens shaped and limited. It cannot be lens shaped unless there is something beyond the borders of the lens, within which the lens sits. And if one time-space lens can sit within what is beyond it, then there is no reason to suppose that ours is the only time-space lens sitting within whatever is beyond ours.
So your claim that I am breaking the law of non-contradiction and saying that something that does not exist also exists, is fallacious. In fact, you admit immediately afterwards that other time-space lenses are not precluded. Now, whatever is beyond our space-time lens must be just as God-filled as our space-time lens is. And if our space-time lens was, in fact, created after some other space-time lenses were already extant within the medium beyond ours lens, then our space-time continuum would have to exist within some other greater space-time continuum, which would have to be ultimately infinite and uncaused, i.e. God.
So, you can see that conceiving of God as having time and space as aspects of His being, rather than time and space not being aspects of God's being, is not in any way heretical, since scripture does not declare one way or the other. In which case, each Christian is free to be persuaded by whichever argument makes most sense to them, and no Christian has the incontrovertible truth on this matter. Otherwise they would be claiming to comprehend with certainty secrets of God's incomprehensible nature that God has chosen not to reveal to us. And if they reject as siblings those who disagree on this issue, and demanding that all Christians must agree with them, they would be practising heresy, They would be committing heresy, which is to try to divide one the body of Christ into antagonistic parties.
So your claim that I am breaking the law of non-contradiction and saying that something that does not exist also exists, is fallacious. In fact, you admit immediately afterwards that other time-space lenses are not precluded. Now, whatever is beyond our space-time lens must be just as God-filled as our space-time lens is. And if our space-time lens was, in fact, created after some other space-time lenses were already extant within the medium beyond ours lens, then our space-time continuum would have to exist within some other greater space-time continuum, which would have to be ultimately infinite and uncaused, i.e. God.
So, you can see that conceiving of God as having time and space as aspects of His being, rather than time and space not being aspects of God's being, is not in any way heretical, since scripture does not declare one way or the other. In which case, each Christian is free to be persuaded by whichever argument makes most sense to them, and no Christian has the incontrovertible truth on this matter. Otherwise they would be claiming to comprehend with certainty secrets of God's incomprehensible nature that God has chosen not to reveal to us. And if they reject as siblings those who disagree on this issue, and demanding that all Christians must agree with them, they would be practising heresy, They would be committing heresy, which is to try to divide one the body of Christ into antagonistic parties.
Your use of the word presumably and postulates in the same reference means there is uncertainty. Throw in the word science and you have all you need for proof in some circles. But it's all still speculation. There exists no evidence.
As far as rejecting other Christians based on their belief on this subject, the idea never entered my mind. Not sure why you would bring that up.
As far as rejecting other Christians based on their belief on this subject, the idea never entered my mind. Not sure why you would bring that up.
God isn't a size. Size means you have limitations, God has no limitations and we struggle to comprehend that.
So since God has no 'size', He certainly did not develop 'size' when He created the universe.
May I respectfully suggest we focus on more important matters like showing God's love to people?
I love to discuss theology but is that really helping or serving others?
Time is short, we are in the end times...Learn to love with God's love our fellow man.
So since God has no 'size', He certainly did not develop 'size' when He created the universe.
May I respectfully suggest we focus on more important matters like showing God's love to people?
I love to discuss theology but is that really helping or serving others?
Time is short, we are in the end times...Learn to love with God's love our fellow man.
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Infinite size has no limitations as to size and says nothing about there being limitations in other ways. From where in scripture do you get the information that God has no size. Someone who describes Himself as measuring the seas in His hand is clearly indicating that He has immense size; possibly infinite size.
I personally don't think God developed size when He created things with size. I think He has always had infinite size; and that He created things inside the space He already was, and inside the time He already was. It seems to me though, logically, that if the Creator had no size when nothing existed, as some are insisting, but He is now inescapably present everywhere in that creation, implying a present size that encompasses all this creation, that He would have to have developed size since creating our cosmos.
The logic seems inescapable, and seems also to fit OK with the actual revelation we have from the Creator in the Bible. This logical conclusion that God has always had immense size, along with the scientific theory that time and space exist as a single continuum, leads to the logical conclusion that, if God is without beginning and without end, the space-time continuum that God inhabits, or is, must be an infinite space - infinite time continuum, This leads to the logical conclusion that God is a beginningless immortal being that experiences time and space, just as He also experiences love and power and truth etc. This means that God would be an infinity temporal and spatial entity.
Once one accepts these logical conclusions, that could open up other possibilities to explain the way a temporal but infinite God purposes and works out His purposes in the lives of temporally limited creatures (having a beginning and an end). But there would be no point in discussing what those alternatives might be with one who rejects or denies these logical and scripturally sound conclusions.
I personally don't think God developed size when He created things with size. I think He has always had infinite size; and that He created things inside the space He already was, and inside the time He already was. It seems to me though, logically, that if the Creator had no size when nothing existed, as some are insisting, but He is now inescapably present everywhere in that creation, implying a present size that encompasses all this creation, that He would have to have developed size since creating our cosmos.
The logic seems inescapable, and seems also to fit OK with the actual revelation we have from the Creator in the Bible. This logical conclusion that God has always had immense size, along with the scientific theory that time and space exist as a single continuum, leads to the logical conclusion that, if God is without beginning and without end, the space-time continuum that God inhabits, or is, must be an infinite space - infinite time continuum, This leads to the logical conclusion that God is a beginningless immortal being that experiences time and space, just as He also experiences love and power and truth etc. This means that God would be an infinity temporal and spatial entity.
Once one accepts these logical conclusions, that could open up other possibilities to explain the way a temporal but infinite God purposes and works out His purposes in the lives of temporally limited creatures (having a beginning and an end). But there would be no point in discussing what those alternatives might be with one who rejects or denies these logical and scripturally sound conclusions.
"the train of His robe filled the temple"
... sorry, that's what popped into my head when i read the question.
... sorry, that's what popped into my head when i read the question.
If God is space, then the galaxies would indeed be like a garment that God wears over some of His invisible space-spirit body. Also, God is love, and God's love has height, length, breadth, depth (Eph 3:18) . So, His love fills space. I would seem to me that scripture evidences more on the side of God having infinite size and filling our space and beyond, than it does the abstract philosophical theory of God having no spatial dimensions at all. Admittedly our space-time continuum seems finite, but ours could be resting within God's greater (limitless) space-time continuum.
If God has space then He would also logically have time. Which would do away with a lot of theological conjectures about God's nature that derived from adopting Platonist philosophical opinions that presume the Uncaused Cause must be timeless.
Only if one believes God is atemporal (without time) would the universe also have to be God. An atemporal being never changes, so all of its experiences are contained in a single now, including all its experience with physical matter. That would mean that everything we call "created" has always been extant in God's timeless "now", and must therefore be equally without beginning.
Of course, the bible says the world had a beginning, so the theory that God is eternal, in the sense of atemporal, outside of or without time is denied by scripture. He is eternal in the other sense of without a beginning or end but ever-enduring throughout all time..
Of course, the bible says the world had a beginning, so the theory that God is eternal, in the sense of atemporal, outside of or without time is denied by scripture. He is eternal in the other sense of without a beginning or end but ever-enduring throughout all time..
Blade said:
Amen and to think everything that is, is Him so.. yeah HUGE haha
Are you a pantheist, Magenta?
Amen and to think everything that is, is Him so.. yeah HUGE haha
And then He is greater even than all that! .
Agreed. His physical human body is the size of Jesus' body. And His spirit does fill all of creation.
Jeremiah 23:24 Can a man hide Himself in a hiding places so I do not see him?" declares the Lord? Do I not fill the heavens and the earth.
And even extends beyond all of creation.
1 Kings 8:27 Behold the heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built.
Jeremiah 23:24 Can a man hide Himself in a hiding places so I do not see him?" declares the Lord? Do I not fill the heavens and the earth.
And even extends beyond all of creation.
1 Kings 8:27 Behold the heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built.
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