Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
I'm not here to enter into dialogue re Law-Sabbath and water baptism-


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”


I am. Psa_31:17; *Psa_40:9; *Psa_40:10; Psa_71:15-16; *Psa_119:46, Jer_9:3, +*Mar_8:38, *Luk_9:26, Act_17:18; Act_23:11; Act_27:35, 1Co_1:18; 1Co_2:2, *2Ti_1:8; *2Ti_1:12; *2Ti_1:16, 1Pe_4:16.
not. FS175B, +Gen_21:16.
ashamed. Rom_6:21, Isa_50:7, +Mar_8:38, Luk_9:26, 2Co_4:2, Php_1:20, 2Ti_1:8; 2Ti_1:12; 2Ti_1:16-17, Heb_2:11; Heb_11:16.
the gospel. Rom_1:1; Rom_1:9, Rom_10:8; Rom_15:19; Rom_15:29, Luk_2:10-11, Act_5:42, 1Co_9:12; 1Co_9:18, 2Co_2:12; **2Co_4:4 g. 2Co_9:13; 2Co_10:14, Gal_1:7; Gal_6:14, *Eph_1:13, Php_1:27, 1Ti_1:11.
for it is. FS4, +Rom_1:13.
the power of God. **Rom_10:17, 2Ch_6:41, *Psa_110:2, Isa_53:1, **Jer_23:29, Mat_10:28 g (is able). *1Co_1:18-24; *1Co_2:4; 1Co_4:20; 1Co_14:24-25; *1Co_15:2, *2Co_2:14-16; +*2Co_10:4; +*2Co_10:5, Eph_1:19, *Col_1:5; *Col_1:6, *1Th_1:5; *1Th_1:6; **1Th_2:13, *Heb_1:3; **Heb_4:12, 1Pe_1:5.
unto salvation. Rom_7:24-25; Rom_13:11, Isa_12:2; Isa_49:8; Isa_51:5, Mat_1:21, Luk_1:69; Luk_1:71; Luk_1:77, Joh_4:22, Act_11:14; Act_13:26; Act_16:17, +*2Co_6:2; 2Co_7:10, Gal_1:4, Eph_1:13, Php_1:28, 1Th_5:8-9, 2Th_2:13, Heb_1:14; *Heb_2:14; *Heb_2:15; *Heb_5:9; +*Heb_9:28 note. +*Jas_1:21, 1Pe_1:5.
to every one. Rom_3:29, See on Rom_4:11, Luk_2:30-32; +*Luk_24:47, Act_3:26; Act_16:32, +*1Ti_2:4, 1Pe_2:6, +*2Pe_3:9, **1Jn_5:10-13.
believeth. or, believing. Gr. pisteuonti. Believing translates pisteuonti, a present tense active voice participle, thus the Gospel is power from God for salvation to all the ones continuing to believe (Malcolm Lavender, Lavender Translation, fn. i). FS121F, +Gen_49:6, The belief is the effect of the power of God through the preaching of the gospel. Rom_4:5, Joh_3:16, +*Act_16:31; Act_20:21.
to the Jew. See on Rom_2:9, Luk_24:47.
first. In point of national precedence and privilege (CB). Rom_2:9-10; Rom_3:1-2; Rom_9:1-5; Rom_11:16, Joe_2:28 note. +*Dan_9:25 note. Zec_13:1, Mat_8:12, +*Act_1:8; *+Act_3:26; Act_13:26; Act_13:46; Act_19:10, Gal_3:28.
and also. *Rom_3:28-30.
the Greek. Representing all non-Jews (CB). +Rom_1:14, Rom_15:9, Mar_7:26, +Joh_7:35; Joh_12:20, Act_10:11; Act_14:1; Act_14:3; Act_19:10, 1Co_10:32, Gal_3:28.



1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
1Co 15:11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.



Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.


Of the doctrine of baptisms,.... Some read this divisively, "baptism and doctrine", as the Ethiopic version; as if the one respected the ordinance of baptism, and the other the ministry of the word; but it is best to read them conjunctively: and by which most understand the Gospel ordinance of water baptism, so called by a change of number, the plural for the singular, as the Syriac and Ethiopic versions, who render it baptism; or because of the different persons baptized, and times of baptizing, as some; or because of the trine immersion, as others; or because of the threefold baptism of spirit, blood, and water, which have some agreement with each other; or because of the baptism of John, and Christ, though they are one and the same; or because of the inward and outward baptism, the one fitting and qualifying for the other; and so the doctrine of it is thought to respect the necessity, use, and end of it; but since there is but one baptism, and the above reasons for the plural expression are not solid, and sufficiently satisfying, it is best to interpret this of the divers baptisms among the Jews, spoken of in Heb_9:10 which had a doctrine in them, to that people; teaching them the cleansing virtue of the blood of Christ, and leading them to it, to wash in for sin, and for uncleanness; but now, since this blood was shed, they were no more to teach nor learn the doctrine of cleansing by the blood of Christ this way; nor any more to be led unto it through these divers baptisms, ablutions, and purifications.

Sound advice-from the Scriptures.
J.
Acts 2:37-39

New International Version



37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”


Please look at this again

Is a promise a covenant,.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
If God wanted a million bucks, do you think he could will that into existence by his infinite power? But if you cannot get what you "will", then this proves your will is limited by your finiteness. Compared to the will of God, I'd say your will would be diminished.
We were discussing the meaning of a couple verses. Therefore, you're answering to a series of responses that only pertain specifically to that conversation. So I will not respond since your comments have nothing to offer to that conversation and you have merely singled a post out of reference for your own purpose.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
"Free Will" to make a choice actually is not connected to the human will to set goals, to live rather than die, and as such.

Free Will exists only in matters connected to God. Do you believe in God, do you obey God, do you follow God? Free Will covers these areas.

Human will is more on terms of will I pay my bills, will I complete the goals I set, if I am diagnosed to die will I have or use the will to fight to live?

Many answers throughout this thread are connecting the two and only one is actually specific to God.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,973
420
83
Then what do you mean by the qualifying clause, "not guarantee it"? I interpreted that as meaning that God frees or soul to make the right choice, BUT we could still make the wrong one!

Grace will not guarantee how we will choose. It only makes us free to make a choice without and hindrance from our sin nature.

Yes! Some while under grace still choose to reject God while God was drawing them to Himself.



The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness
of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God
is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world
God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen,
being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him,
but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they
claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for
images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles." Romans 1:18-23
God opened their eyes to knowing to the Truth He is real by grace!

Yet? They still refused!!!

Just like Satan and his angels saw God's power creating the earth, and still refused to remain with God.


Yes... evil is beyond comprehension dumb and stupid. Yet, claiming to be the wise.

In Christ...
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
404
173
43
Texas
Charles Spurgeon's Morning and Evening writing seemed to go well with the topic of Predestination.

Evening for 2/27
"Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting"
Micah 5:2
The Lord Jesus had goings forth for his people as their representative before the throne, long before they appeared upon the stage of time. It was "from everlasting" that he signed the compact with his Father, that he would pay blood for blood, suffering for suffering, agony for agony, and death for death, in the behalf of his people; it was "from everlasting" that he gave himself up without a murmuring word. That from the crown of his head to the sole of his foot he might sweat great drops of blood, that he might be spit upon, pierced, mocked, rent asunder, and crushed beneath the pains of death. His goings forth as our Surety were from everlasting. Pause, my soul, and wonder! Thou hast goings forth in the person of Jesus "from everlasting." Not only when thou wast born into the world did Christ love thee, but his delights were with the sons of men before there were any sons of men. Often did he think of them; from everlasting to everlasting he had set his affection upon them. What! my soul, has he been so long about thy salvation, and will not he accomplish it? Has he from everlasting been going forth to save me, and will he lose me now? What! Has he carried me in his hand, as his precious jewel, and will he now let me slip from between his fingers? Did he choose me before the mountains were brought forth, or the channels of the deep were digged, and will he reject me now? Impossible! I am sure he would not have loved me so long if he had not been a changeless Lover. If he could grow weary of me, he would have been tired of me long before now. If he had not loved me with a love as deep as hell, and as strong as death, he would have turned from me long ago. Oh, joy above all joys, to know that I am his everlasting and inalienable inheritance, given to him by his Father or ever the earth was! Everlasting love shall be the pillow for my head this night.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
Acts 2:37-39

New International Version



37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”


Please look at this again

Is a promise a covenant,.

Feal free to answer will God call the far of to water baptism.

And why would he promise this and why would he do this



 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
Have you never heard of the Power of the Holy Spirit? Do you not know that the new birth requires Grace (regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) and [Gospel] Truth (Jn 1:17).
And the new birth requires that first of all a sinner repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12,13). But you would like to put the cart before the horse. There is no regeneration without the gift of the Holy Spirit, and there is no gift of the Holy Spirit without obedience to the Gospel FIRST. So you are calling Gospel truth a "straw man". Shame on you. You have also dismissed the power of the Gospel. which means that you have another gospel -- a false gospel.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
In Ephesians 2:8, which things are not of ourselves: salvation, grace, faith?
In Ephesians 2:8, which things are grammatically neuter gender: salvation, grace, faith? Or the method of salvation represented by the clause "we-are-saved-by-grace-through-faith"?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
If you claim water baptism is required. Yes I can call it blasphmeny and it is

If this is not calling water baptism blasphemy, I really can't help you.

I must not be here if anyone thinks this is not calling water baptism blasphemy.

i must be dreaming and seeing an illusion.
You must not be here because I think this is not calling water baptism blasphemy.

You must be dreaming and seeing an illusion.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
If you claim water baptism is required. Yes I can call it blasphmeny and it is


You must not be here because I think this is not calling water baptism blasphemy.

You must be dreaming and seeing an illusion.
Who are the far of brother, and Why did God make a promise to call them to be baptised. 😊


 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
In Ephesians 2:8, which things are grammatically neuter gender: salvation, grace, faith? Or the method of salvation represented by the clause "we-are-saved-by-grace-through-faith"?
In Acts 2:37, who or what produced hearing, who or what pricked their hearts, what is involved in the pricking of the heart, why did their wills look for a response, and why only 3,000 and not everyone present were affected?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
In Ephesians 2:8, which things are grammatically neuter gender: salvation, grace, faith? Or the method of salvation represented by the clause "we-are-saved-by-grace-through-faith"?
Which of these these things were not of yourselves: salvation, grace, faith?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
Which of these these things were not of yourselves: salvation, grace, faith?
The answers is found in Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Since eternal life is a gift and salvation is also a gift, the answer should be obvious. But it is only by God's grace and the finished work of Christ that this is possible.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
The answers is found in Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Since eternal life is a gift and salvation is also a gift, the answer should be obvious. But it is only by God's grace and the finished work of Christ that this is possible.
I agree it should be obvious, but the way people parse answers and, at times, manipulate scripture, it isn't.
While I don't think it is vital to one's salvation to understand the outworking of salvation, nor do I believe it is worthy of not trying to maintain the the unity of the faith concerning it, one manner seems to me to give all the glory to God and the other at least some to man.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
In Acts 2:37, who or what produced hearing, who or what pricked their hearts, what is involved in the pricking of the heart, why did their wills look for a response, and why only 3,000 and not everyone present were affected?
Just say that you don't know. Diverting attention away from questions you don't know the answer to doesn't help your case.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
Which of these these things were not of yourselves: salvation, grace, faith?
Just say that you don't know. Diverting attention away from questions you don't know the answer to doesn't help your case.

God's salvation and God's grace. My faith was a faculty I was born with. I suppose one could therefore say that that was technically also from God.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
Just say that you don't know. Diverting attention away from questions you don't know the answer to doesn't help your case.

God's salvation and God's grace. My faith was a faculty I was born with. I suppose one could therefore say that that was technically also from God.
I've seen others go through the argument you set before me. I was unconvinced of it because of the answer you just gave. I was just trying to save us both some time.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,973
420
83
Those in him; believers, who make up his body. The church, as a body was pre-destined to a certain fate: conformity to the image of the son of God.

Those who do not believe... have a different destination.

You and I are not pre-destined to be in or out of that body; as we have a choice to believe or not believe.


Fine.. You are saying about what happens to those chosen in Him.

I was going after as to what it means to be chosen in Him.

You can not be in His body unless you have believed. We know that.

What many do not yet realize is that we are now hidden in His Body!
Awaiting the Resurrection, which will give us a body just like His own glorious body.


You were missing what I was getting at.

Here....

God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus!

Ephesians 2:6

The real you and me? We are now seated IN HIM and with Him in Heaven!

Our bodies we have on earth now?
Those have been crucified with Christ! (Gal 2:20)


We are now hidden in His Glorious Body in Heaven.
Just as Eve's body was in Adam's body before the Lord placed Adam into a deep sleep!

The Bride is yet to be revealed in all Her Glory! RESURRECTION!



:) .................... grace and peace!
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,973
420
83
In Ephesians 2:8, which things are not of ourselves: salvation, grace, faith?

When you sat in class in elementary school, and your teacher taught you where Russia is located on a map?
You accepted it by faith. You did not doubt that Russia is real.

Too many of us assume that faith is something supernatural in nature.
God gives power to what our faith accepts concerning the invisible and gives the power to believe it beyond doubting.

But we all have the capacity for faith...... We are born with this ability.