Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
Do you believe it is necessary to recieve the body of Christ to be saved?
Do you believe we are born again only by taking part in out first communion bread and wine? Do you take the folowing verse literally?
"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have NO LIFE in you."
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,218
6,610
113
62
I don't believe there's any works to it at all since it was told by Jesus to do. Jesus knows God does it all so He would not tell us to do something against what He's doing for us any ways. I believe when Peter was preaching in Acts 2:38, is how we read in Acts 10 is what happens.

I'll explain.
I believe Acts 10:
44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

^
Those verses explain what Jesus commanded and what Peter said in Acts 2:38

1. 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

2. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

3. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said to His Disciples 1. Repent, 2. be Baptized, 3. receive the Holy Spirit

Peter confirmed Jesus Words:
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
^
When Peter was preaching Those verses in Acts chapter 2 and 10 explain Ephesians 1: and Romans 10:
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
+
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

I don't believe any of this is "works" at all. It's the process that God commanded that happens when we believe. Water baptism is not a "works" it's a process Jesus said would be done.

Works is me trying to do something to gain salvation.
None of that was discussed by Jesus. I can't Repent until I know why I need to repent, I can't water Baptize myself someone else does it to me, and I cannot fill myself with the Holy Spirit - Hearing God's Word does that in the process of Regeneration.
Repent, be baptized, and receive are all things the individual is commanded to do. Can you think of any command in scripture that the performance of it is not a work?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
If you are doing the work of water baptism to get saved.

You are trying to earn your salvation.

If you were baptized by God the moment you believed. God did all the work of saving you.
That's why I wrote it as I did " I can't water Baptize myself someone else does it to me"
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
What Really Happened in the Garden After the Fall?

Below is my argument that the post-fall Genesis narrative is illustrative of the Doctrines of Grace. Here it is in kernel form:

1. Rom 5:10 and a host of other scriptures teach that sinners are enemies of God. However, Gen 3:15 clearly implies
that by God sovereignly decreeing enmity between the Serpent and Eve, He also removed the enmity between her and Himself
that resulted due to her sin. For how could Eve have been at enmity with Good and Evil at once (God and the devil, respectively)? God, therefore, reconciled Eve to himself by decreeing enmity between her and the serpent. Adam, however, is conspiculously absent in that decree.

2. God also placed enmity between the woman's seed and the serpent's, which which a highly unusal way in the ancient world of expressing progeny, for this was commonly expressed in male terms. Moreover, these two seeds represent the woman's godly line and the serpent's ungodly line. The fact that the godly seed does not descend from Adam can only mean that Adam was very likely the seed of the serpent.

3. Eve manifested faith toward God after the Fall by giving credit twice to Him for giving her a "man-child", which she doubtlessly believed was the promised "seed" in Gen 3:15 (cf. 4:1,25).

4. Adam named his wife Eve, which means "mother of all living" (Gen3:20). This phrase means more than Eve merely being the grand matriarch of the human race; it's much more likely that she is the mother of all the godly spiritual seed by virtue of the ultimate promised "seed" (Christ) who would descend from her to crush the serpent's head, thereby significantly adding more weight to her redemptive status.

5. Eve is a type of the Bride of Christ in several respects. See next post for these details.

6. Not only isn't there any evidence that Adam had true faith, but his sin is characterized as "transgression" (Rom 5:15). Additionally,
Adam was quite arrogant toward God when he was asked by God what he had done. Adam insinuated to God his culpability for Eve's sin when he said, "The woman YOU gave to me..." (3:12), implying that God had given him defective goods. (And this kind of retort to this day is a favorite argument among atheists and other skeptics.)

7. Adam hid his transgression from God (Job 31:33), which is extremely displeasing to Him (Prov 28:13; Mat 23:25-28) and the consequences, thereof, can be seen in the lives of Cain, Saul and Ananias and Sapphira (Gen 4:9; 1Sam 15:13-24; Act 5:1-11, respectively).

8. It's clear from 3:22-25 that God's anger was directed solely toward Adam. It was "the man" whom God drove out of the Garden. Eve is conspicuously excluded.

9. It was "the man" who God explicitly kept from the "tree of life". Again, Eve was excluded.

10. The Hebrew word "garash" (Strong's 1644) translated "drove" (Gen 3:24) is a strong term that denotes being cast out, driven away, thrust out. Adam wasn't politely showed the gate out of the Garden; he was in no uncertain terms unceremoniously "evicted". This term is frequently used in the OT with respect to either God driving out his enemies or the enemies of his chosen people (cf. Gen 4:14; 21:10, Ex 6:1; 10:11; 11:1; Num 22:6; Deut 33:27; Josh 24:12, etc.)

Moreover, in the Greek, the term "ekballo" translated "drove out " or "cast out" is employed in the NT with respect to Christ's enemies
(cf. Mat 8:12). It is used also when Jesus casts out demons (Mat 10:1; 13:50). And used again when he casts out the money
changers from the temple twice (Mk 11:15; Mat 21:12; Lk 19:46.

11. Adam is the only individual type of Christ that has the dubious distinction of being portrayed in the NT by contrasts to Christ (Rom 5:12-21; 1Cor 15:20-21,45.) There are no positive statements about Adam in scripture. A very dubious distinction indeed!

12. Whereas Eve's name means "mother of all living" (interestingly, the Septuagint renders "Eve" literally as "Life"), Adam is not the spiritual father of God's chosen people; rather, Abraham is (Rom 4:11,16-18; Gal 3:7, etc.)! This strongly suggests that Adam, unlike Abraham, was not a man of faith!

13. Adam, like the angels, had direct empirical evidence for God's existence, as God directly communicated with him, communed with him, brought the animals to him and created Eve from his side. Since God chose to not provide any salvific remedy for the fallen angels who had this kind of direct knowledge, Adam's salvation, under these circumstances, would be unprecedented in scripture.

14. All the foregoing strongly supports Remnant Theology in scripture, as God has always had but a remnant of his faithful witnesses upon the earth during any particular time period -- the "7,000 who have never bowed a knee to Baal", Noah and his family during the Flood, etc. The exclusion of Adam, therefore, from salvation is consistent with scripture; whereas the salvation of both our first parents would be unprecedented since they comprised the entire human race at the time of the Fall.

15. The election of Eve and the exclusion of Adam also set the precedent for how God dealt with other pairs of humans, e.g. Ishmael and Issac and Jacob and Esau. This pattern, again, demonstrates the consistency of scripture, thereby strongly reinforcing the conclusion to this argument.

For all these reasons, I do not see Adam's salvation in scripture. While one might argue that God provided coverings for both Adam and Eve (Gen 3:21),these coverings were very likely the skins of innocent slain animals, this doesn't necessarily mean that Adam embraced that symbolic sin covering through repentance and faith; whereas, there is evidence that Eve did so. Cain wore coverings, too, but obviously did not accept their significance or the significance of blood sacrifices. Israel, too, went through all the ritualistic motions of sacrifices for atonement purposes that God had ordained, but both Judah and Israel were apostate nations!

Also, we should not be distracted by the fact that Eve was also evicted from the Garden along with her husband, and she was also forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life, as Adam was. Eve suffered temporal (or natural) punishment for her sin, as Adam did for his. Eve's punishment (discipline) served as the template for how God often deals with his saints' sins in this world (Heb 12:7-11; Psalm 32, etc.). But nonetheless, Eve was not condemned, whereas the foregoing preponderance of evidence strongly suggests that Adam was. With this kind of evidence I can only conclude that God sovereignly elected Eve unto salvation and adopted her into his family. Conversely, all the negative arguments against Adam can only suggest God election of him unto reprobation. Notwithstanding the very weak argument of Gen 3:21, there is not one positive indicator in Adam's favor throughout all the bible.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Repent, be baptized, and receive are all things the individual is commanded to do. Can you think of any command in scripture that the performance of it is not a work?
No!
Repent, be Baptized, Receive the Holy Spirit said by Jesus is the "Process" that happens. Those are the "Works" being done by God when we Believe. Jesus even said in my 3 Verses I quoted of Him
16 Whoever believes
38 Whoever believes in me

We believe after WE HEAR the Gospel like Acts 10 shows.
And then Repentance, Baptism, receive Holy Spirit happen after we Believe.

But we can do none of that on our own and none of that happens from God until we first HEAR the Gospel.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
The Typology of Adam and Eve
There was a very good reason that Eve was created out of Adam’s rib and then presented to him as his wife, and the reason is found in Ephesians 5:23-33.

1. Just as Adam is a type of Christ, Eve is a type of the Church.

2. Christ, the Son of God, existed independently of the Church from eternity, thus Adam existed independently of Eve.

3. Adam was put to sleep in order that Eve might be taken out of his side as a rib. Christ was “put to sleep” in His death and burial so that the Church might be born on the Day of Pentecost.

4. Eve was taken out of Adam’s side, just as the Church was born out of the blood and water that flowed out of the side of Christ.

5. Eve was bone of Adam’s bone and flesh of his flesh, just as the Church (the Body of Christ) is bone of His bones and flesh of His flesh (Eph. 5:30).

6. Eve was presented by God the Father to Adam as his bride and his wife, just as the Church has been presented to Christ as His Bride and will become the Lamb’s Wife.

8. When Eve was presented to Adam she was spotless and without sin. When the Church becomes the Lamb’s wife she will be spotless and without sin (Eph. 5:27).

9. Just as Adam and Eve became “one flesh” in their marriage, Christ and the Church (his Bride) will be eternally united in holy matrimony and in a union that is perfect.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,218
6,610
113
62
No!
Repent, be Baptized, Receive the Holy Spirit said by Jesus is the "Process" that happens. Those are the "Works" being done by God when we Believe. Jesus even said in my 3 Verses I quoted of Him
16 Whoever believes
38 Whoever believes in me

We believe after WE HEAR the Gospel like Acts 10 shows.
And then Repentance, Baptism, receive Holy Spirit happen after we Believe.

But we can do none of that on our own and none of that happens from God until we first HEAR the Gospel.
I'm a little confused. When we hear we believe and are saved?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
No!
Repent, be Baptized, Receive the Holy Spirit said by Jesus is the "Process" that happens. Those are the "Works" being done by God when we Believe. Jesus even said in my 3 Verses I quoted of Him
16 Whoever believes
38 Whoever believes in me

We believe after WE HEAR the Gospel like Acts 10 shows.
And then Repentance, Baptism, receive Holy Spirit happen after we Believe.

But we can do NONE of that on our own and none of that happens from God until we first HEAR the Gospel.
Kool! :cool: So, then all of salvation is of God. It is HIS miracle, after all! He even gives his people ears to hear! (y)
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Kool! :cool: So, then all of salvation is of God. It is HIS miracle, after all! He even gives his people ears to hear! (y)
He does give us ALL ears to hear but we have the Free Will to shut our ears

57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
I'm a little confused. When we hear we believe and are saved?
We can listen or stop our ears.

Those who choose to listen will be Saved.

57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,218
6,610
113
62
We can listen or stop our ears.

Those who choose to listen will be Saved.

57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him.
Shut ears is the estate of fallen man. That's why understanding is necessary. Stopped their ears meant they didn't want to physically hear any more. That's why they cried out so as to drown out the sound. They were not given ears to hear or this would not have been their response.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
He does give us ALL ears to hear but we have the Free Will to shut our ears

57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him.
Oh...gosh you were doin' so swell there for a moment. :( But I do believe that the ones to which he doesn't give ears will freely choose to reject him. Ain't got no other choice. They have to choose according to their nature. Cannot choose contrary to it.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Shut ears is the estate of fallen man. That's why understanding is necessary. Stopped their ears meant they didn't want to physically hear any more. That's why they cried out so as to drown out the sound. They were not given ears to hear or this would not have been their response.
They shut them "while hearing" the Gospel. So humans control what they want to hear. God made us in his image to hear Him. We choose if we want to hear or not.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Oh...gosh you were doin' so swell there for a moment. :( But I do believe that the ones to which he doesn't give ears will freely choose to reject him. Ain't got no other choice. They have to choose according to their nature. Cannot choose contrary to it.
They shut them "while hearing" the Gospel. So humans control what they want to hear. God made us in his image to hear Him. We choose if we want to hear or not.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
That's exactly why I believe we must be changed prior to placing our trust in Him.
They shut them "while hearing" the Gospel. So humans control what they want to hear. God made us in his image to hear Him. We choose if we want to hear or not.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
We can listen or stop our ears.

Those who choose to listen will be Saved.

57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him.
But you also said earlier But we can do NONE of that on our own. So, why couldn't that be the logical reason they stopped their ears and rushed together at him? It seems you're assuming that God gives ears to all and sight to all; yet scripture teaches otherwise.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
They shut them "while hearing" the Gospel. So humans control what they want to hear. God made us in his image to hear Him. We choose if we want to hear or not.
Yes, and being in that image means we can't do something that God cannot do. The Fall of mankind damaged that image. Badly! We can only choose according to our nature. So, yes, the unregenerate freely choose to make the only choice they can. We have no power to change our nature.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
The calvin/armenian debate is crazy, I would say 90 % of the people here are neither.
I agree.:) I think most Christians refer to themselves simply as Christians. It‘s unfortunate that we have so many views on the Book God gave us to study and rightly divide. —selah
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Yes, and being in that image means we can't do something that God cannot do. The Fall of mankind damaged that image. Badly! We can only choose according to our nature. So, yes, the unregenerate freely choose to make the only choice they can. We have no power to change our nature.
I am using the Bible and you are using your mythical doctrine. Why would I believe you over the Bible?