Do the non-elect have free-will?

[Jimbone]

The ability for you to choose is your free-will.

IU disagree, our will is a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. At least that's what Jesus said. I'm going with him.

I think this is a stupid thing for Christians to fight over though, because you just call choice free will. I believe in choice too, we are told to choose and not be lukewarm. However our choices are still slaves to our nature, be it in sin or in the Spirit. That's why I don't like the term "free" will because Jesus tells us very specifically we are slaves of one or the other, and while it honestly does not matter what we call it, I just prefer to keep it as in line with our King as possible. That's what He says. That said I understand what you mean too so really don't need to battle you over it.

 

[homwardbound]

IU disagree, our will is a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. At least that's what Jesus said. I'm going with him.

I think this is a stupid thing for Christians to fight over though, because you just call choice free will. I believe in choice too, we are told to choose and not be lukewarm. However our choices are still slaves to our nature, be it in sin or in the Spirit. That's why I don't like the term "free" will because Jesus tells us very specifically we are slaves of one or the other, and while it honestly does not matter what we call it, I just prefer to keep it as in line with our King as possible. That's what He says. That said I understand what you mean too so really don't need to battle you over it.

Thank you, not battling, I have made my choice as I see you have too, thank you now we are bondservants to the King
Thanks for the edification

 

[vassal]

Who:(The non-elect)
What:(Free-will)
When, where, how, and why did it go wrong for those who are not of the elect?

In Christian theology, the term "non-elect" generally refers to those individuals who are not chosen by God for salvation according to certain interpretations of the Bible, particularly within Calvinist theology. This concept is closely related to the doctrine of predestination, which posits that God has predetermined the eternal destiny of every individual, either for salvation (the elect) or for damnation (the non-elect).

The idea of the non-elect is derived from passages in the Bible that discuss God's sovereignty in choosing whom to save. For example, in Romans 9:15-18 (ESV), the apostle Paul writes:

"For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

According to this view, the non-elect are those whom God has not chosen for salvation, and they are therefore destined for eternal punishment. This understanding of predestination and election has, as you know, been a subject of debate and controversy within Christian theology for centuries.

It's important to note that not all Christians accept the doctrine of predestination or the concept of the non-elect. Different theological traditions within Christianity have varying interpretations of these concepts, with some emphasizing human free will and the universality of God's offer of salvation to all people. Personally I do not adhere to the predestination concept, I do believe all of us have free will and can be part of the elect if one chooses to by doing God's will.

Blessings

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

1. Revelation 21:6
   And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Revelation 22:17
   And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Galatians 5
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. ...

Genesis 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat

Colossians 3:11
where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

without free choice to choose. I would be a puppet wouldn't I and all others too.

My choice is made, and thus am bonded


Ephesians 6:8
knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

Bonded to the risen Lord, my Lord unto his Lord

His life is free not yours

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

IU disagree, our will is a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. At least that's what Jesus said. I'm going with him.

I think this is a stupid thing for Christians to fight over though, because you just call choice free will. I believe in choice too, we are told to choose and not be lukewarm. However our choices are still slaves to our nature, be it in sin or in the Spirit. That's why I don't like the term "free" will because Jesus tells us very specifically we are slaves of one or the other, and while it honestly does not matter what we call it, I just prefer to keep it as in line with our King as possible. That's what He says. That said I understand what you mean too so really don't need to battle you over it.

Well said Jim 😊

I would listen to this good foundational biblical truth @MerSee

And Don't listen to people taking salvation for granted

 

[homwardbound]

His life is free not yours

As God gifts this or not to each person that sincerely believes or not. God choice to choose us, and as I see this truth I see God through Son chose us all to choose to believe God or not
Too simple, which makes it not simple to human nature of flesh thanks

It is gifted to me to be thankfully free Psalms 100:4, 103:12 Ezekiel 36:26 it is done for me and all to choose to believe God or not personally as God calls all by risen Son, not me or anyone else. I just share this gift for all to see it and choose also, so the end will finally be

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

As God gifts this or not to each person that sincerely believes or not. God choice to choose us, and as I see this truth I see God through Son chose us all to choose to believe God or not
Too simple, which makes it not simple to human nature of flesh thanks

It is gifted to me to be thankfully free Psalms 100:4, 103:12 Ezekiel 36:26 it is done for me and all to choose to believe God or not personally as God calls all by risen Son, not me or anyone else. I just share this gift for all to see it and choose also, so the end will finally be

Have to be handed to the son first from the father who has all men held captive to this



Then when your handed to the son this happens.

 

[Mem]

I think the confusion comes in the difference in having a will and the ability to exert it by our own power. Even in giving us over to our own exemplifies God's grace to impress His will upon us, though not without His letting that HIs will be known to all.

 

[homwardbound]

Have to be handed to the son first from the father who has all men held captive to this

View attachment 263237

Then when your handed to the son this happens.

View attachment 263236

Once anyone is saved by God, no one can stop it, but self having free choice can choose to not believe God after knowing the truth. Yet who will?
I see I will not and God knows this, I will not deny God, even as job would not and did not, I am here Lord, what do you need, Okay, thank you I agree and will answer to everyone else too
God simply loves us all y'all. Time to make the choice, thank you

There are many that say they believe, yet God remains as the only one that knows this, whether or not another one believes God or not and themselves as well
I stand in trust to God to work it all, out and remain thankful however it works out, being Glad I am not God
Have a blessed day

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Trying to identify things in doctrine by “ the elect “ and non elect “ is not really biblical way to look at it or a good structure to lay a foundation it’s more like this situation

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬


“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

For the good that I would I do not:

but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Now if I do that I would not, ( if I do what I dont want to do )it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:18-24‬ ‭

“ Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free…. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 34, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin,

ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we do what Jesus is saying and start hearing and practicing his word this begins to happen

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and Paul’s letters become more sensible

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The one thing on earth that changes a persons mind and heart is the knowledge and understanding they have in tbier mknds and heart

what they hear and accept as the truth either a serpents lies or the lords own true words

our choice is still Gods true word and understanding in the gospel over the knowledge of Good and evil


“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[homwardbound]

Trying to identify things in doctrine by “ the elect “ and non elect “ is not really biblical way to look at it or a good structure to lay a foundation it’s more like this situation

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬


“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

For the good that I would I do not:

but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Now if I do that I would not, ( if I do what I dont want to do )it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:18-24‬ ‭

“ Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free…. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 34, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin,

ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we do what Jesus is saying and start hearing and practicing his word this begins to happen

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and Paul’s letters become more sensible

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The one thing on earth that changes a persons mind and heart is the knowledge and understanding they have in tbier mknds and heart

what they hear and accept as the truth either a serpents lies or the lords own true words

our choice is still Gods true word and understanding in the gospel over the knowledge of Good and evil


“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Thanks for the reminder of truth, God simply loves us all to believe, no matter what adversities happen here on earth to us. Here is a short while, eternity given is forever in thanksgiving and praise

 

[Avestan]

You do not yet understand enough about the issues of the limits of human free will.
Sure. In everyday matters? Man makes many choices freely.... Free will in that scope.
But, he is not free to not sin when the flesh wants its way.

Because of the sin nature that we have inherited from Adam in the fall?
Man in his natural fallen state is not able to freely choose to know God.
Not unless God by His power of grace squelches MAN'S sin nature can man begin to feel free to want to know God.

Without God suppressing our sin nature with its depraved dominance over the soul?
We would all remain opposed to God by instinct.

​

​

For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires ​

what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that ​

you don’t do what you want." Galatians 5:17​

Without God administering His power to silence our flesh?
You could never have had believed in Jesus.

When Grace was being supplied by the Spirit while you were being drawn by God?
As long as grace was at work in you? Your soul was free to accept God's drawing you to Himself.
And, even free to reject.

When made free to accept, or reject?
Then the choice to reject becomes that one's responsibility making one accountable.
For the sin nature's power to control was being nullified while the choice was made.

Calvinism distorted it into meaning the power of Grace forcing you to believe.
Actually, Grace was forcing down the flesh to make you free in your soul to choose for yourself.

Not everyone given grace chooses for God!
That is why all men are without excuse for not believing and God is right for condemning them.


grace and peace ..........

 

[Genez]

Well I know everyone has their own way of looking at it, but I believe we are told that free will isn't even a thing. This is just what we've come to call "choice". I 100% believe that we all have choice, but those choices are a slave to our natures, which are in sin or in the Spirit. I also believe these subject run deep and are so much bigger than we can ever hope to understand fully, Jesus says we are slaves to sin or to righteousness, or as I like to put it, We are slaves of sin or or to Him.

As far as the "how, I found myself believing and saved, I was just talking about this in a thread about repentance. The way God saved me went like this in a nutshell, I heard the alter call, made the decision to go up front, I repeated the prayer I was lead to say, and then declared saved for all eternity by the spiritual leader I trusted. This was my choice and I was NOT saved. I don't think my pastor was trying to "dupe" me nor did he have anything but the best intentions, and I meant it as much as I could too, yet was deceived into thinking I knew Jesus and understood what being a Christian really was.

Then after having been a false Christian with a false idea of what it even was for about 5 years I hit the biggest trial of my life and the false Jesus didn't help. For 2 years I tried to shoulder it all on my own and it brought me to my knees in defeat. With the understanding that I was deceived into thinking I had "already done" the whole Jesus thing and it didn't help, I didn't call out for God nor even have Him on my mind. I hit my knees in defeat seeing exactly how "great" I truly was after 33 years on this earth. At the time I had no clue, but this was when God granted me repentance. There's SO much more too it than this, but all I did was see myself in truth with NO hope at all, and I quit. Wasn't even sure what than meant, but the world won, it beat me down, and I quit.

I woke up the next day having no idea what I was in for. It was lunch the next day when it hit me. Like I said there's so much more to it, but at this point I had no use of my right arm for 2 years after a motorcycle wreak took it and fought uncontrollable suicidal thoughts every 5 minutes, all day, everyday, for 2 years. Well at lunch this next day was when it hit me, "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!". It was that second that I knew that #1. Whatever this was it was from God. #2. Jesus was His Son.

I share this long testimony to help to explain why I would say that it wasn't my will or choice that saved me. When I made the choice I was deceived, when I was born again in truth, it was ALL Him and I didn't even realize until after what was going on. This is also why I am firmly in the "it's ALL God and NONE us" camp.

The biggest part of being saved is the intense pain of soul that appears, telling you that you need to be saved. But how?

That pain appears because you are saved! For regeneration brings with it a required massive learning curve that must be mastered if one is to find inner peace in their life...

As far as I was concerned? I did not want to be saved from Hell when I believed.
I wanted to be saved from my pain.

When I believed in Jesus Christ I simply did so because I wanted to believe in Jesus!
I was not thinking about eternal life.
I was not thinking of escaping Hell.... I just wanted to be with Jesus as my choice.

After you are saved (you may not even know you entered regeneration) pains .. inner pains of soul ... will appear.
Forcing you to search for solutions!

Here is what must happen after we become regenerated...

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great ​

mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection ​

of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, ​

spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith ​

are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready ​

to be revealed in the last time. ​

​

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had ​

to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. ​

​

These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth​

than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory ​

and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. ​

​

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him ​

now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you ​

are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls." 1 Peter 1:3-9​

It better be sound doctrine or you will become only an actor on the stage of life!


After God regenerated us immediately when we first believed? In God's timing our soul was placed
into God's determined trials of life as a means to strongly motivate us to learn God's Word more and more...
which Word when understood becomes "our faith"to overcome all that stands against God's desire for our lives.

When we achieve gaining the sound doctrine needed for or sufferings and trials (which is becoming our faith )
then our soul is entered into a peace which is God's umbrella of grace given for us for our living on earth...
A peace that will keep us with inner prosperity of soul, while causing us to experience having a capacity for life
that the world will not know how to have. Faith comes by hearing (perceiving) the Word!

It better be sound doctrine. False doctrines make believers in to smiling phonies who only can act happy, but not be happy.

Grace and peace! .................

 

[MerSee]

His life is free not yours

We have the freedom to choose to believe sound doctrine.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

We have the freedom to choose to believe sound doctrine.

Only one sound doctrine really is to seek before ye understand.

Thats done by holding on to patience.

And patience is a virtue from the lord.

That's also a part of his will. The lord said I will bless those with my fruits his will

As the saying goes Jesus said you can do nothing without me.

I'm sure that applies to the saved and unsaved as in it's his life that's in you, whether saved or unsaved.

His will.

The lord God said let there be light and there was, his will. Light from his light

The lord God said let us make man in are image and it was. His will

Life from his life.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Once anyone is saved by God, no one can stop it, but self having free choice can choose to not believe God after knowing the truth. Yet who will?
I see I will not and God knows this, I will not deny God, even as job would not and did not, I am here Lord, what do you need, Okay, thank you I agree and will answer to everyone else too
God simply loves us all y'all. Time to make the choice, thank you

There are many that say they believe, yet God remains as the only one that knows this, whether or not another one believes God or not and themselves as well
I stand in trust to God to work it all, out and remain thankful however it works out, being Glad I am not God
Have a blessed day

Who ever chooses not to belief God is falls under this





Stroll on 😋

A prayer before obeying

 

[homwardbound]

Who ever chooses not to belief God is falls under this

View attachment 263241



Stroll on 😋

A prayer before obeying

Yes only in belief, it gets and is taken away for each person that chooses to believe God, even as Job did don that in the book of Job. I see my name there and yours and yours and yours too. Will you deny God, I deny people, especially my first born self as said by Paul in Phillipians 3. To let go of hypocrisy and let go of being under Law to see how to uphold Law in us given us by God for us. This takes being willling
Luke 22:42
saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

In agreeing between Father and you as Son did that all the way for us to death for us to be dead to the first born person we are first born in from man and woman. To be new in God Father's Spirit and truth thank you willingly, free choice to choose consciously

Ephesians 1:13

Authorized (King James) Version

13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Ephesians 1:6

Authorized (King James) Version

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Ephesians 1:7

Authorized (King James) Version

7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Philippians 1:6

Authorized (King James) Version

6 being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

all done by choosing and standing in the choice even under scrutiny and troubles too, thank you

 

[Nehemiah6]

Those who are not of the elect are the non-elect.

And as I said there is no such thing. You are laboring under a delusion. You do not understand the purpose of divine election.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Yes only in belief, it gets and is taken away for each person that chooses to believe God, even as Job did don that in the book of Job. I see my name there and yours and yours and yours too. Will you deny God, I deny people, especially my first born self as said by Paul in Phillipians 3. To let go of hypocrisy and let go of being under Law to see how to uphold Law in us given us by God for us. This takes being willling
Luke 22:42
saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

In agreeing between Father and you as Son did that all the way for us to death for us to be dead to the first born person we are first born in from man and woman. To be new in God Father's Spirit and truth thank you willingly, free choice to choose consciously

Ephesians 1:13

Authorized (King James) Version

13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Ephesians 1:6

Authorized (King James) Version

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Ephesians 1:7

Authorized (King James) Version

7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Philippians 1:6

Authorized (King James) Version

6 being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

all done by choosing and standing in the choice even under scrutiny and troubles too, thank you

Something to posture

His life in the unsaved that he has under the power of his death in his life in the unsaved , accepts the new seed 😊 when he says so

Thankyou for the scripture blessings

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Something to posture

His life in the unsaved that he has under the power of his death in his life in the unsaved , accepts the new seed 😊 when he says so

Thankyou for the scripture blessings

In case your wondering @homwardbound the power of death is in his life.

So therefore there is still life in the unsaved 😊

Thankyou