Predestination is misunderstood...

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reneweddaybyday

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sawdust said:
I appreciate what you have said here and I did not give my reply lightly. I am not so arrogant to think there isn't a point at which I might break but I have faced a number of experiences where I could easily be dead now.
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I know. I think every believer (including me) will always answer yes as well ... and then I remember Peter. I love Peter ... on the one hand: walked on water ... eyewitness to His majesty ... ferociously tried to protect Jesus in the garden ... on the other hand: get thee behind me ... the denials ... I go a fishing. Peter is such a great example of every believer.

I also believe God gives us what we need in every situation so that we can endure.

Daniel 3:23-25 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.




My only thought when faced with death now is "to live is Christ, to die is profit". :)
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right. :cool:
.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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sawdust said:
If they had indeed believed the Gospel they would have been saved unless you think God doesn't keep His word. (and I know you don't think that)
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Of course they haven't truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ or they would be saved. But they believe they have. The people spoken of in the verse have cast out demons, they have prophesied, and performed miracles. They profess to have done so in His name. They put most Christians to shame in their zeal. To say that they haven't given mental assent to the gospel is ludicrous to me.
If you attend church, there are no doubt some there who fall into this category. I have unsaved children who recognize that God has yet to do a work in their hearts but believe the Bible is true.
 
Genez

Genez

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Cameron143 said:
Of course they haven't truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ or they would be saved. But they believe they have. The people spoken of in the verse have cast out demons, they have prophesied, and performed miracles. They profess to have done so in His name. They put most Christians to shame in their zeal. To say that they haven't given mental assent to the gospel is ludicrous to me.
If you attend church, there are no doubt some there who fall into this category. I have unsaved children who recognize that God has yet to do a work in their hearts but believe the Bible is true.
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They never believed in "the" Christ.... They believed in a christ of their own liking....

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles
of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore
it is not a great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness,
whose end will be according to their deeds.

When ever given information about Jesus they would always wrongly apply it to the christ they would want to believe in.

Its still comes down to choice.

And, we are not here to straighten everyone out, for its really a matter between them and the Spirit of God who does a much better job of revealing to souls the true "essence" nature of Christ.

No one is going to the Lake of Fire because some Christian messed up when presenting the gospel.
Its still between the unbeliever and God Himself.


grace and peace ............
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Genez said:
They never believed in "the" Christ.... They believed in a christ of their own liking....

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles
of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore
it is not a great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness,
whose end will be according to their deeds.

When ever given information about Jesus they would always wrongly apply it to the christ they would want to believe in.

Its still comes down to choice.

And, we are not here to straighten everyone out, for its really a matter between them and the Spirit of God who does a much better job of revealing to souls the true "essence" nature of Christ.

No one is going to the Lake of Fire because some Christian messed up when presenting the gospel.
Its still between the unbeliever and God Himself.


grace and peace ............
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They still affirmed the gospel to be true. And that's what I was addressing.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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Cameron143 said:
Of course they haven't truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ or they would be saved. But they believe they have. The people spoken of in the verse have cast out demons, they have prophesied, and performed miracles. They profess to have done so in His name. They put most Christians to shame in their zeal. To say that they haven't given mental assent to the gospel is ludicrous to me.
If you attend church, there are no doubt some there who fall into this category. I have unsaved children who recognize that God has yet to do a work in their hearts but believe the Bible is true.
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That's the whole point. Telling yourself you believe something to be true and actually believing it to be true are not the same thing. Most of us do not even know the truth about ourselves which is why we are so easily deceived. To believe something is to give mental assent to it's veracity, that's exactly what believing is. So for someone to say giving mental assent to the Gospel is not believing the Gospel is oxymoronic. My personal opinion is that in many cases people who say they believe in Jesus yet do not show a "saved life" is because they believe Jesus died for our sin but don't really believe He rose from the dead. They may well want to believe, but when push comes to shove, they don't believe He is risen. The foundational message of the Gospel is that He died AND rose from the dead. This is the power of God unto salvation.

Why do you think God puts our faith to the test? In part, it is to reveal to us we do not have the faith we think we have. We say I believe God cares for me, but when put to the test we find out we only believe He cares up to a point, if indeed, at all. We tell ourselves all manner of lies to cope with the heartbreak of life. I have to agree with Billy Joel, honesty is hard to find, especially within ourselves.

Yet faith is the conviction and assurance of things not seen. This is how we tell we have faith as distinct from what we tell ourselves what we believe. Faith cannot be shaken because it comes from the Word. Our believing is an act of our will. Our wills do not have the power to shape reality but the Word does. Whenever we are struggling in our walk by way of hurt or confusion we need to peel back the layers, like the proverbial onion, of what we say we believe until we reach the core of where we are certain and rest in that, for that is our faith. That, is God's gift to us.

As for your children, if they truly believe the Bible is true, then they are saved because God never fails to keep His word. I will remember them in my prayers. <insert praying hands>
 
sawdust

sawdust

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Cameron143 said:
They still affirmed the gospel to be true. And that's what I was addressing.
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That's your assumption. If they truly affirmed the Gospel as the truth they would be saved because that is what God does, He saves believers.
 
Genez

Genez

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Cameron143 said:
They still affirmed the gospel to be true. And that's what I was addressing.
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This handsome young man asks a pretty looking lesbian out on a date.

She says 'no.'

Did she affirm he was a handsome young man?


.............
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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sawdust said:
That's the whole point. Telling yourself you believe something to be true and actually believing it to be true are not the same thing. Most of us do not even know the truth about ourselves which is why we are so easily deceived. To believe something is to give mental assent to it's veracity, that's exactly what believing is. So for someone to say giving mental assent to the Gospel is not believing the Gospel is oxymoronic. My personal opinion is that in many cases people who say they believe in Jesus yet do not show a "saved life" is because they believe Jesus died for our sin but don't really believe He rose from the dead. They may well want to believe, but when push comes to shove, they don't believe He is risen. The foundational message of the Gospel is that He died AND rose from the dead. This is the power of God unto salvation.

Why do you think God puts our faith to the test? In part, it is to reveal to us we do not have the faith we think we have. We say I believe God cares for me, but when put to the test we find out we only believe He cares up to a point, if indeed, at all. We tell ourselves all manner of lies to cope with the heartbreak of life. I have to agree with Billy Joel, honesty is hard to find, especially within ourselves.

Yet faith is the conviction and assurance of things not seen. This is how we tell we have faith as distinct from what we tell ourselves what we believe. Faith cannot be shaken because it comes from the Word. Our believing is an act of our will. Our wills do not have the power to shape reality but the Word does. Whenever we are struggling in our walk by way of hurt or confusion we need to peel back the layers, like the proverbial onion, of what we say we believe until we reach the core of where we are certain and rest in that, for that is our faith. That, is God's gift to us.

As for your children, if they truly believe the Bible is true, then they are saved because God never fails to keep His word. I will remember them in my prayers. <insert praying hands>
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I never said they were the same thing. Go back to the original post I responded to. I answered it. The rest you have added on.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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sawdust said:
That's your assumption. If they truly affirmed the Gospel as the truth they would be saved because that is what God does, He saves believers.
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I guarantee you there are people in your church who affirm the gospel to be true and yet aren't saved. You just like to argue.
 
Genez

Genez

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Cameron143 said:
I guarantee you there are people in your church who affirm the gospel to be true and yet aren't saved. You just like to argue.
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How do you know you are not like them and only think you are saved?

Surely, they think they are....
 
Genez

Genez

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Thunderrr-mental said:
What a weird question.
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It was a metaphor.


" They still affirmed the gospel to be true. And that's what I was addressing."

Means?

One can affirm that something is so, yet have no connection to that truth...
 
Genez

Genez

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Cameron143 said:
I guarantee you there are people in your church who affirm the gospel to be true and yet aren't saved. You just like to argue.
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You are inviting others into a dangerous area to judge others.

Who are you to know if someone is not saved when they claim to believe?
 
sawdust

sawdust

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Cameron143 said:
To say that they haven't given mental assent to the gospel is ludicrous to me.
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Cameron143 said:
I never said they were the same thing. Go back to the original post I responded to. I answered it. The rest you have added on.
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The first quote is your original post. To give assent is to agree with as true. So they either agree with the Gospel as being true or they are deceived and either are lying to themselves or are ignorant of the Gospel. You can't have it both ways. They cannot give assent and not be saved.

Cameron143 said:
I guarantee you there are people in your church who affirm the gospel to be true and yet aren't saved. You just like to argue.
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No, I don't like to argue, I like to be accurate. I guarantee there is no-one in my Church who believes the Gospel to be true and is not saved. God keeps His word.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Genez said:
You are inviting others into a dangerous area to judge others.

Who are you to know if someone is not saved when they claim to believe?
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I don't know who is and who isn't. I just know that everyone who says Lord, Lord isn't saved. In fact, Jesus says it's many.
I'm not judging anyone personally. I'm just repeating what He said.
 
S

Sipsey

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Cameron143 said:
I don't know who is and who isn't. I just know that everyone who says Lord, Lord isn't saved. In fact, Jesus says it's many.
I'm not judging anyone personally. I'm just repeating what He said.
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We are all in good company. Noah was surrounded by unbelievers, yet how many years did he preach? Since we don’t know who yet may awaken from their stupor of unbelief, let us shine the light of the Gospel to all who come near.
 
Genez

Genez

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Cameron143 said:
I don't know who is and who isn't. I just know that everyone who says Lord, Lord isn't saved. In fact, Jesus says it's many.
I'm not judging anyone personally. I'm just repeating what He said.
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One more time for someone who has been resistant in grasping the specific meaning of words that Jesus used to describe specifically the ones who will say, Lord, Lord.




“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, ​
but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. ​
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, ​
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ ​
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice ​
lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23​

Those people had real supernatural power working for them!

You still can't see it?


‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons,
and in Your name perform many miracles?’ ​


.........
 
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