Dogs Returning To Their Vomit
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I use the old saying, on any difficult passage. Study to show yourself approved.
Also. the word can not contradict.
The bible can not say you will never die, live forever. and have eternal life
Then say you can still die, you may not live forever. and you do not have eternal life.
Only one can be true.. so when I read difficult passages. I do all I can to make them agree,,
Also. the word can not contradict.
The bible can not say you will never die, live forever. and have eternal life
Then say you can still die, you may not live forever. and you do not have eternal life.
Only one can be true.. so when I read difficult passages. I do all I can to make them agree,,
No you really didn't because then you wrote this:
I already said that God had given us free will that will never be taken away from us. There have already been people who chose to walk away from God in the Bible so we shouldn't ignore that. God will certainly try to encourage people thinking about leaving to stay, but will let a person go if they are determined to leave.
Our relationship with God is not monergistic. It is actually synergistic. It is a relationship of cooperation where God does the brunt of the work. All we need to do is abide in Him and not resist His work.
If it was monergistic then God would have full control of us. And that would mean that we would all embrace the same doctrine and behave the same way and mature at a steady rate according to the Lord's expectations. BUT WE DON'T. We all DO NOT hold to the same teachings and behave accordingly and maturity at the steady rate God expects of us. Do you know why? It's because we all still have free will and God will never force us to do things or believe the things He wants us to. If you don't want to believe the many verses in the Bible (which is very dangerous thing to do by the way) about that then at least believe it from seeing the actual results in real life.
I mean, just look at this forum with so many different views from professing Christians (I'm not counting the trolls). If our walk with God is monergistic, we would all be in complete agreement with each other.
This is why I don't believe you really read anything I wrote. Just because you say that apostate people never knew Christ and are therefore never Christians - that is just your view from a very limited standpoint. But honestly that isn't as important as how God sees them, who knows everyone's heart. If GOD views them as being once saved and has now fallen away, who's definition actually counts? Hint: not yours.
To be sure there are prodigal children. I was one too. But just because we never really left God doesn't mean there aren't people who left Him entirely and won't come back. The Bible says it happens and it named names as examples. We cannot ignore those verses just because they're unpleasant. This is important to face because there will be more people who will leave God, especially when the antichrist appears.
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I already said that God had given us free will that will never be taken away from us. There have already been people who chose to walk away from God in the Bible so we shouldn't ignore that. God will certainly try to encourage people thinking about leaving to stay, but will let a person go if they are determined to leave.
Our relationship with God is not monergistic. It is actually synergistic. It is a relationship of cooperation where God does the brunt of the work. All we need to do is abide in Him and not resist His work.
If it was monergistic then God would have full control of us. And that would mean that we would all embrace the same doctrine and behave the same way and mature at a steady rate according to the Lord's expectations. BUT WE DON'T. We all DO NOT hold to the same teachings and behave accordingly and maturity at the steady rate God expects of us. Do you know why? It's because we all still have free will and God will never force us to do things or believe the things He wants us to. If you don't want to believe the many verses in the Bible (which is very dangerous thing to do by the way) about that then at least believe it from seeing the actual results in real life.
I mean, just look at this forum with so many different views from professing Christians (I'm not counting the trolls). If our walk with God is monergistic, we would all be in complete agreement with each other.
This is why I don't believe you really read anything I wrote. Just because you say that apostate people never knew Christ and are therefore never Christians - that is just your view from a very limited standpoint. But honestly that isn't as important as how God sees them, who knows everyone's heart. If GOD views them as being once saved and has now fallen away, who's definition actually counts? Hint: not yours.
To be sure there are prodigal children. I was one too. But just because we never really left God doesn't mean there aren't people who left Him entirely and won't come back. The Bible says it happens and it named names as examples. We cannot ignore those verses just because they're unpleasant. This is important to face because there will be more people who will leave God, especially when the antichrist appears.
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If you study to show yourself approved you wouldn't ignore verses you don't like.
The possibility of a Christian falling away and God not ever leaving or separating from us DOES harmonize. They're actually not in contradiction with each other.
Let's say you really love your wife and you know in your heart that you will never leave her. But then your wife starts to distance herself from you and stops spending as much time with you as she used to. Then the arguments begin and she pays less and less attention to you. And the relationship gets worse. You love her so much that you do everything in you to reconcile with her that's within legal means of course, and outside of forcing her. But she is still unwilling. Then one day she tells you she wants a divorce. You never made the move to leave her - SHE is the one who left you in that relationship.
It's the same process as with a Christian who falls away. It's sad but it happens and that's why God talks about it in the Bible and tells us how to avoid it. It's so easy!
Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
That verse wouldn't be in the Bible if God took away our free will and programmed us to stay instead.
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Yes i did.
And those comments still stand.
Eternal life (to live forever) is given the moment one believes. Nothing changes that.
They were never saved, You can say they were. and that's fine, But God says they were never saved. You do not lose faith in someone who never let you down, unless you never had true faith to begin with.
A dog returns to his vomit because he is a dog.. Not because he was converted to a sheep and decided he wanted to be a dog again.
I think we can both agree they will not be in heaven..
We just differ on if they were ever truly born again or not.
Amen,
But we are talking salvation here. Not sanctification.
Those are two different subjects.
I am saved forever 9eternal life sealed by the spirit of promise)
But my life and my relationship with God varies from day to day..
Again I agree.
I see 3 different gospels (way to heaven)
but there are many doctrines outside the gospel
The gospel is how we are saved,
all the rest are basic instructions of life..
think of it this way, we were children of satan, God adopted us into his family
Outside the family, we have no relationship or even the possibility
Once we are adopted. He becomes our father.. Everything else relates to this.
A sheep can walk away. But God leaves the flock and goes after that sheep. His sheep hear his voice and he comes..
That was me 15 years ago when I walked away from the church. God knew when to come after me, and when he did. I returned.
I did not stop being his child.. God never left me.. he said he would never leave nor forsake me no matter what.
But I did read what you wrote.
The bible says they were never saved..
God does not make mistakes. he is not going to save a person and give them eternal life KNOWING in ten years that person will walk away and give him the finger. and have to take his gift back.
You do not fall away from being saved, You fall away from the ability to be saved, Once a person is enlightened, if they harden their heart again after walking up to the line, and turn away, they will never come back.. Thats why they can never be renewed to repentance..
I can not ignore the promise of God either, Or who he is,
Again, John said they were never of us,, I must agree with John here..
And those comments still stand.
Eternal life (to live forever) is given the moment one believes. Nothing changes that.
They were never saved, You can say they were. and that's fine, But God says they were never saved. You do not lose faith in someone who never let you down, unless you never had true faith to begin with.
A dog returns to his vomit because he is a dog.. Not because he was converted to a sheep and decided he wanted to be a dog again.
I think we can both agree they will not be in heaven..
We just differ on if they were ever truly born again or not.
Amen,
But we are talking salvation here. Not sanctification.
Those are two different subjects.
I am saved forever 9eternal life sealed by the spirit of promise)
But my life and my relationship with God varies from day to day..
Again I agree.
I see 3 different gospels (way to heaven)
but there are many doctrines outside the gospel
The gospel is how we are saved,
all the rest are basic instructions of life..
think of it this way, we were children of satan, God adopted us into his family
Outside the family, we have no relationship or even the possibility
Once we are adopted. He becomes our father.. Everything else relates to this.
A sheep can walk away. But God leaves the flock and goes after that sheep. His sheep hear his voice and he comes..
That was me 15 years ago when I walked away from the church. God knew when to come after me, and when he did. I returned.
I did not stop being his child.. God never left me.. he said he would never leave nor forsake me no matter what.
But I did read what you wrote.
The bible says they were never saved..
God does not make mistakes. he is not going to save a person and give them eternal life KNOWING in ten years that person will walk away and give him the finger. and have to take his gift back.
You do not fall away from being saved, You fall away from the ability to be saved, Once a person is enlightened, if they harden their heart again after walking up to the line, and turn away, they will never come back.. Thats why they can never be renewed to repentance..
I can not ignore the promise of God either, Or who he is,
Again, John said they were never of us,, I must agree with John here..
Now your going to far, and are stoping any form of discussion and starting to become unreasonable.
I do not ignore them, I learn how to interpret them correctly. and not interpret them so that they agree with my belief system.
No it does not.
It says we have conditional life not eternal life
It says the seal of the spirit is not until the day of redemption, but until the day we walk away
it says we can still die after we eat the bread from heaven
it says salvation is not a gift that is freely given, but a reward for work done.
I am still married to her, he can leave me all she wants, it does not mean I have to grant the divorce.
No it is not.. God does not divorce his people.. You were bought by his sons blood. that can not be broken.
I am not calvinist. I believe in free will. Please do not try to put me in a calvinist shoes.
I believe in free will. I just reject any notion a person who has truly experienced Gods love and salvation would reject and deny him, and that those who do reject and deny him after claiming the knew him were never saved.. for as John said, if they were of us, they never would have left.
1 John 2: 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
I do not ignore them, I learn how to interpret them correctly. and not interpret them so that they agree with my belief system.
No it does not.
It says we have conditional life not eternal life
It says the seal of the spirit is not until the day of redemption, but until the day we walk away
it says we can still die after we eat the bread from heaven
it says salvation is not a gift that is freely given, but a reward for work done.
I am still married to her, he can leave me all she wants, it does not mean I have to grant the divorce.
No it is not.. God does not divorce his people.. You were bought by his sons blood. that can not be broken.
I am not calvinist. I believe in free will. Please do not try to put me in a calvinist shoes.
I believe in free will. I just reject any notion a person who has truly experienced Gods love and salvation would reject and deny him, and that those who do reject and deny him after claiming the knew him were never saved.. for as John said, if they were of us, they never would have left.
1 John 2: 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Especially since
“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.”
Acts 10:42 KJV
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Acts 17:30-
“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
Romans 14:10-12 KJV
“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:”
John 5:22 KJV
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14 KJV
“And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, ( by the sons word ) pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:”
1 Peter 1:17 KJV
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 20:12-13, 15 KJV
The book of life
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
they are accepting the gospel now because his words are the judgements of God and so they aren’t facing a judgement of the dead later thier acceptong Christs judgements ( his word his teachings in the gospel ) now they are confessing to God now rather than later
“every tounge shall confess everyone must give account “
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
1 John 1:9-10 KJV
Christian’s can deal with sin now through repentance and remission but there’s the same judgement for all mankind
“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.”
Acts 10:42 KJV
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Acts 17:30-
“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
Romans 14:10-12 KJV
“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:”
John 5:22 KJV
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14 KJV
“And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, ( by the sons word ) pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:”
1 Peter 1:17 KJV
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 20:12-13, 15 KJV
The book of life
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
they are accepting the gospel now because his words are the judgements of God and so they aren’t facing a judgement of the dead later thier acceptong Christs judgements ( his word his teachings in the gospel ) now they are confessing to God now rather than later
“every tounge shall confess everyone must give account “
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
1 John 1:9-10 KJV
Christian’s can deal with sin now through repentance and remission but there’s the same judgement for all mankind
No you really didn't.
Eternal life is in Jesus and not separate from Him. If a person leaves Him, that person no longer has eternal life
1 John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How come you don't site Bible verses to defend your case? You're referring to Matthew 7:21-23 by the way. To me, these are just fake Christians. But there are verses by Jesus Himself that show He thought of apostate people as once Christians.
Bible Verses Where Jesus Acknowledges an Apostate Person was Once Saved
The Seed that Falls on Rocky Places
In the parable of the four soils, Jesus talks about the seed that falls on rocky places:
Matthew 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Mark 4:16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.
Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
As you can see in all three gospels, when Jesus tells this parable, Jesus actually sees them as having been formerly saved because these people receive the word with joy and did endure for a while.
Also note that these people fell away due to tribulation, persecution and temptation. The Bible does tell us that there will be a great falling away when the great tribulation starts!
The Five Virgins Who Didn't Have Oil for Their Lamps
Matthew 25:6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘ No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
The difference between this set of people as compared to the fakers in Matthew 7:21-23, the Greek words used in these verses are different from those used in the former. The Greek phrase here is οὐκ οἶδα ὑμᾶς which means, "I do not know you now." Jesus used to know these people, but due to neglect on their part, He didn't know them anymore. They were saved before because these were virgins dressed up for the wedding feast and were waiting for the bridegroom just like the wise virgins. They got careless though and for whatever reason, they no longer topped up their lamps with oil like the wise virgins did.
But observe what the bridegroom said and did - He said "I don't know you" AND wouldn't open the door! And this is a parable coming from the Lord.
The Unfaithful Servant
Luke 12:42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
The unfaithful servant is a person who was saved and serving God. But for whatever, because he thinks the Master is taking too long, this person got careless and stopped living the way his Master wanted him to. The Master was of course not pleased when He found his servant in the fallen state that he was in and actually punished him and cast him out among the unbelievers!
These are all examples straight from Jesus Himself of people who He viewed as saved but had fallen away. Later on when the other NT books were being written, the NT writers talked about people who fell away and named names.
I think I'll stop here so that the focus will be on Jesus' view of apostates and the fact that He DID view them as having been once saved.
🐛
Eternal life is in Jesus and not separate from Him. If a person leaves Him, that person no longer has eternal life
1 John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How come you don't site Bible verses to defend your case? You're referring to Matthew 7:21-23 by the way. To me, these are just fake Christians. But there are verses by Jesus Himself that show He thought of apostate people as once Christians.
Bible Verses Where Jesus Acknowledges an Apostate Person was Once Saved
The Seed that Falls on Rocky Places
In the parable of the four soils, Jesus talks about the seed that falls on rocky places:
Matthew 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Mark 4:16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.
Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
As you can see in all three gospels, when Jesus tells this parable, Jesus actually sees them as having been formerly saved because these people receive the word with joy and did endure for a while.
Also note that these people fell away due to tribulation, persecution and temptation. The Bible does tell us that there will be a great falling away when the great tribulation starts!
The Five Virgins Who Didn't Have Oil for Their Lamps
Matthew 25:6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘ No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
The difference between this set of people as compared to the fakers in Matthew 7:21-23, the Greek words used in these verses are different from those used in the former. The Greek phrase here is οὐκ οἶδα ὑμᾶς which means, "I do not know you now." Jesus used to know these people, but due to neglect on their part, He didn't know them anymore. They were saved before because these were virgins dressed up for the wedding feast and were waiting for the bridegroom just like the wise virgins. They got careless though and for whatever reason, they no longer topped up their lamps with oil like the wise virgins did.
But observe what the bridegroom said and did - He said "I don't know you" AND wouldn't open the door! And this is a parable coming from the Lord.
The Unfaithful Servant
Luke 12:42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
The unfaithful servant is a person who was saved and serving God. But for whatever, because he thinks the Master is taking too long, this person got careless and stopped living the way his Master wanted him to. The Master was of course not pleased when He found his servant in the fallen state that he was in and actually punished him and cast him out among the unbelievers!
These are all examples straight from Jesus Himself of people who He viewed as saved but had fallen away. Later on when the other NT books were being written, the NT writers talked about people who fell away and named names.
I think I'll stop here so that the focus will be on Jesus' view of apostates and the fact that He DID view them as having been once saved.
🐛