Dogs Returning To Their Vomit

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,952
1,873
113
I'm not sure who your post is written to, nor am I sure what its about, but I thought the above quote would be fun to respond to. :)

What does the following verse and especially the red highlight mean to you?

Acts 26:18 KJV - "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

What is the difference of a person who is transferred from the Power of Satan to the Power of God?
One has trusted God and repented

one has not
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,121
113
yes Jesus is giving a sermon there about repentance first he shows his part coming to get the lost sheep and searching for the coin and then he shows man’s part to repent and return to the father who’s waiting with open arms notice he never comes and bonds the wayward son and drags him back home because his son is free he was free to leave and he’s free to return

He hits rock bottom then remembers his fathers house is better than his current life he chose wrongly so the. He comes to repentance and decides to return to his fathers house

he doesn’t even make it all the way home but his loving Father was waiting and watching saw him from far away walking home . The. He runs to meet him overwhelms him with hugs and kisses

Notice the son is still repenting but the fsther is like he’s not even hearing him he’s just overjoyed that his lost son had returned who he’s always loved but who he never went and forced home he had his freedom all along and he decided to come home seeing his bad choice in life he reached the point of godly sorrow and a broken and contrite spirit God is waiting for in all of us

Correct. I have mentioned before that I had a crisis of faith that God had to deal with, but I thank God that from the beginning to the end of that exile into the dessert, He was always watching out for me and drawing me to Him even when it took a long time. I look back at it and the timing, events and lessons learned were all deliberate. I learned in such a way, that I NEVER WANT TO DO ANYTHING TO SEPARATE MYSELF FROM HIM AGAIN. So yeah, His chastisement worked!

However, it is sad that sometimes that doesn't work for some other people. I actually did know someone who was saved but for whatever reason he knowingly stopped being a Christian. From what I saw, he let disbelief overcome him instead of receiving wisdom from God (who gives abundantly!) and never came back to Him.

He developed depression that got worse. And he eventually successfully committed suicide. It was a very big deal when that happened because no one took him seriously that he was THAT suicidal before. It really affected all who knew him.

For me, after that, I NEVER took a depressed person for granted that they won't commit suicide. I had another friend who was depressed and I would pray for him often that He finds God and gets saved. For the past few months, God really laid him in my heart to pray for him - and guess what?!?? He got SAVED a few weeks ago! I actually cried I was so happy - and RELIEVED!!! Now I pray that God keeps him in His love. We are keepers of our brothers and sisters and this is why I pray for them! :)


🧦
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,178
5,727
113
Correct. I have mentioned before that I had a crisis of faith that God had to deal with, but I thank God that from the beginning to the end of that exile into the dessert, He was always watching out for me and drawing me to Him even when it took a long time. I look back at it and the timing, events and lessons learned were all deliberate. I learned in such a way, that I NEVER WANT TO DO ANYTHING TO SEPARATE MYSELF FROM HIM AGAIN. So yeah, His chastisement worked!

However, it is sad that sometimes that doesn't work for some other people. I actually did know someone who was saved but for whatever reason he knowingly stopped being a Christian. From what I saw, he let disbelief overcome him instead of receiving wisdom from God (who gives abundantly!) and never came back to Him.

He developed depression that got worse. And he eventually successfully committed suicide. It was a very big deal when that happened because no one took him seriously that he was THAT suicidal before. It really affected all who knew him.

For me, after that, I NEVER took a depressed person for granted that they won't commit suicide. I had another friend who was depressed and I would pray for him often that He finds God and gets saved. For the past few months, God really laid him in my heart to pray for him - and guess what?!?? He got SAVED a few weeks ago! I actually cried I was so happy - and RELIEVED!!! Now I pray that God keeps him in His love. We are keepers of our brothers and sisters and this is why I pray for them! :)


🧦
I have so very much to add to this ….wait nope just a huge AMEN !!
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,121
113
Show me the words, "stopped abiding in Christ" or "no longer righteous" in scripture. Righteousness is found only in Christ (Philippians 3:9) and either we are justified and will be glorified or else neither. (Romans 8:30)
This is JESUS' own words:

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

It doesn't get any clearer than that. Jesus is warning us here. If OSAS was true, He would have never said it to us in the first place. Also:

Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Anyone grafted into the vine is saved. So there is that responsibility to God to remain abiding in Him as He is the root that supports us. Those that were not spared however cannot be considered "never saved" because they were actually grafted in the vine - at one time abiding in Christ.

2 John 1:8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

So those who run ahead and do not continue in the teaching of Christ (which implies at one time they were keeping pace with the Lord, continuing in His teaching and were therefore saved) have stopped abiding in God.



(About sanctification.)
We already went over this. Sanctification is also a process. It can be stopped if a person freely chooses to as the verses above show.


All the NT letters are addressed to believers, but that does not mean that everyone in these very large groups of "professing" believers are all genuine believers. If you attended a very large church on Sunday and the Pastor greeted the congregation that morning with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" would you automatically assume that everyone who attended church that Sunday morning must be a genuine brother or sister in Christ because of that greeting? The Bible talks about wheat and tares and the tares outnumber the wheat.

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are superficial believers mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. Hence, the warnings: Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-3; 6:7-9; 10:39; 12:15 etc.. We also see genuine believers and superficial believers mixed together throughout various churches and throughout various Christian forum sites.
The verses I provided above are people grafted into the vine which is Jesus and receiving life from Him. They are saved people. I also read the verses you included from Hebrews. Notice that there is no distinction made about the degree of genuine or superficial belief in any of those verses. So God sees them as saved regardless and is warning all of us without making any distinction.


Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Did you see that? DID NOT BELIEVE. Not later stopped believing.

Genuine believers are very much saved, but not superficial believers.

Superficial believers merely taste of the Spirit, (Hebrews 6:4-5) but they do not drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Superficial believers draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
Jude only talks in general about those who did not believe. You can't infer from this one verse that they ALL never at one time believed. There had to be SOME who did believe and had given up along the way. So Jude isn't talking about all of them being superficial believers.

If you had read further, Jude even talks about abiding in God:

Jude 1:20 However, you, dear friends, must build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God as you await our Lord Jesus Christ in his mercy, who will grant you eternal life.


🧦
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,121
113
I really do not see any need to go further. You do not seem to understand the basic truth of the gospel. And your trying to take my hope away.
I've already supplied plenty of verses that say a person can lose their salvation by leaving God. You just don't like those verses and have complete ignored them. As a result, that distorts the true gospel that you believe in. If I'm taking away any hope from you, I'm trying to take away any false hope so that your gospel is not longer distorted.


I have never blamed God for a believer falling away. I do not know where you come up with this stuff. This just shows me that you have been listening to people to much and not looking to see yourself.

No, I have implied if what YOU SAY IS TRUE, God lied.

God said they will NEVER DIE. You say that they can still die and end up in hell

If they can still die and end up in hell. GOD LIED. It gets no clearer than this.
The Bible is clear that salvation CAN be lost as the Bible had given examples and named names. So this IS true. Moreover, if you're young enough to still be around when the antichrist is revealed, you're going to see A LOT of believers turn apostate. Some you'd be very surprised turning their backs on God to receive the mark of the beast and not willing to lose all they have including their lives. So I have to wonder if you're going to blame God for all of them falling away. :unsure:

I tell you, God can't be blamed for any of them falling away. The Bible is thick with warnings for a reason. If people don't heed them, the blame is ON THEM, not on God.


second, Your saying God gave someone eternal life. And this hope KNOWING that they would walk away, because their faith is not real. So again. You have a weakened God who is not all he says he is.. My God knows me, He knew me before I was in my mothers womb, He does nt make mistakes.
Now you're saying God is weak? God isn't weak - He just doesn't want to force people to do things they don't want to do! Of course He will do all He can to woo them back, but if they have determined to leave Him, He will honor their decision. It all comes back to having a real relationship of love that He wants with people - He doesn't want programmed robots.


How can you have hope? How can you know in the next 20 years somethign will not happen in your life that will destroy your faith and you will not walk away from God?

I am sorry, But your hope is not real. I know. I had your hope before.. it was a false hope based on my, and not n God.
No, honestly, I don't think you've ever had "my hope" before. If you did, you'd understand what abiding in Christ means which the NT writers admonished in every book.


(A lot of false accusations about non-OSAS people. Then....)​

I can deal with all kinds of persecution and tribulation because like Paul. I know this lifetime is but a blink in the heart. No one can hurt me, No one can take my salvation from me, No one, not even myself. Can keep me from heaven.

You can;t say that.. And that is why you can;t have true living hope, even though you claim you do.
Oh calm down. You're freaking out again, lol! If you're overly concerned about your own walk, I personally don't see you leaving God. I think you DO love Him and will stay with Him all the way to the end. :) I'm just saying that not ALL will.


🧦
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,163
2,177
113
Why do dogs return to their vomit? Because they have yet to change their mind that vomit is unpalatable. Sure, they'll gladly receive a steak when it's made available to them but, if it were served on a bed of vomit, they wouldn't turn their nose up from it.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,952
1,873
113
I've already supplied plenty of verses that say a person can lose their salvation by leaving God. You just don't like those verses and have complete ignored them. As a result, that distorts the true gospel that you believe in. If I'm taking away any hope from you, I'm trying to take away any false hope so that your gospel is not longer distorted.
No you have not. You gave verses YOU THINK prove it. But they do not when taken in context.




The Bible is clear that salvation CAN be lost as the Bible had given examples and named names. So this IS true. Moreover, if you're young enough to still be around when the antichrist is revealed, you're going to see A LOT of believers turn apostate. Some you'd be very surprised turning their backs on God to receive the mark of the beast and not willing to lose all they have including their lives. So I have to wonder if you're going to blame God for all of them falling away. :unsure:

I tell you, God can't be blamed for any of them falling away. The Bible is thick with warnings for a reason. If people don't heed them, the blame is ON THEM, not on God.
Why are you going down this rabbit trail again?

No one is blaming God for anything..


Now you're saying God is weak? God isn't weak -
There you go twisting my words again

We can not have a conversation if you are going to keep twisting my words.

I do not think God is weak. He starts what he finishes, I am confident of that. As is paul.

Your the one who claims he may not finish it..

He just doesn't want to force people to do things they don't want to do!
He does not have to force anyone. No one would willingly leave, Unless they have never truly met him.. You will never convince me otherwise.

Of course He will do all He can to woo them back, but if they have determined to leave Him, He will honor their decision. It all comes back to having a real relationship of love that He wants with people - He doesn't want programmed robots.
No, he would not. Hebrews makes it clear. if they fall away, they can not be renewed.. If salvation could be lost. its gone forever.

No, honestly, I don't think you've ever had "my hope" before. If you did, you'd understand what abiding in Christ means which the NT writers admonished in every book.
I know what abiding in Christ means.

If I abide in christ I will produce fruit and be rewarded. if not. God will lift me up (unfortunately it is translated cut off in the english bible) and cut off the bad or dead parts so I can start producing fruit again.

Thats the sanctification process.

You also right, I have never had your hope. I do not believe you have any hope. Your hope is in self. not God.. and to me, that is no hope at all.


Oh calm down. You're freaking out again, lol! If you're overly concerned about your own walk, I personally don't see you leaving God. I think you DO love Him and will stay with Him all the way to the end. :) I'm just saying that not ALL will.
🧦
Good thing it is not up to us.

God said he will never let us God.. My salvation is on God. not my ability to do anything.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,952
1,873
113
Why do dogs return to their vomit? Because they have yet to change their mind that vomit is unpalatable. Sure, they'll gladly receive a steak when it's made available to them but, if it were served on a bed of vomit, they wouldn't turn their nose up from it.
Amen,

Because they are still dogs..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,585
3,616
113
Do you believe the KJV has "jargon" in it? And if not, what would you think of the person who said that about your favorite Bible translation?
I said what i said as an attempt to foster clear communication.. That was my intention.. Nothing i said was ment as a personal attack on anyone.. I stand on what i said because different people can read the same verse in the Bible and interpret different words to mean different things.. I have found from experience that the more religious jargon a person uses the more confused a seeker who has not been ""Churched"" will be in understanding the actual message of the Gospel for instance.. Breaking down Church Jargon into plain speech not only helps a seeker understand but it also helps religious people from different denominations understand more clearly what the other person actually believes..

On most occasions i post scripture in my replies to people but i also give a parragraph describing the verses in plain ordinary speech to that a person can read both the message i am giving and compare it to the passage of the scriptures i am quoting in my reply..
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
I said what i said as an attempt to foster clear communication.. That was my intention.. Nothing i said was ment as a personal attack on anyone.. I stand on what i said because different people can read the same verse in the Bible and interpret different words to mean different things.. I have found from experience that the more religious jargon a person uses the more confused a seeker who has not been ""Churched"" will be in understanding the actual message of the Gospel for instance.. Breaking down Church Jargon into plain speech not only helps a seeker understand but it also helps religious people from different denominations understand more clearly what the other person actually believes..

On most occasions i post scripture in my replies to people but i also give a parragraph describing the verses in plain ordinary speech to that a person can read both the message i am giving and compare it to the passage of the scriptures i am quoting in my reply..
I've read enough to formulate a judgment. Therefore, from this point onward, I have nothing left to say.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,427
113
58
This is JESUS' own words:

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

It doesn't get any clearer than that. Jesus is warning us here. If OSAS was true, He would have never said it to us in the first place.
In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Also:

Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Anyone grafted into the vine is saved. So, there is that responsibility to God to remain abiding in Him as He is the root that supports us. Those that were not spared however cannot be considered "never saved" because they were actually grafted in the vine - at one time abiding in Christ.
How about a little context. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26).

We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off."

Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,427
113
58
2 John 1:8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

So those who run ahead and do not continue in the teaching of Christ (which implies at one time they were keeping pace with the Lord, continuing in His teaching and were therefore saved) have stopped abiding in God.
The words "stopped abiding" are nowhere found in n 2 John 1:8-9 and instead, we see two camps:

1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ and do not have God" (never did) and
2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son."

We already went over this. Sanctification is also a process. It can be stopped if a person freely chooses to as the verses above show.
I disagree with your eisegesis. Once again, there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are superficial believers mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. Hence, the warnings: Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-3; 6:7-9; 10:39; 12:15 etc.. Have you read these verses and noticed the contrast between genuine believers and unbelievers?

The verses I provided above are people grafted into the vine which is Jesus and receiving life from Him. They are saved people. I also read the verses you included from Hebrews. Notice that there is no distinction made about the degree of genuine or superficial belief in any of those verses. So, God sees them as saved regardless and is warning all of us without making any distinction.
Not all of these people (collectively Jews and Gentiles) were saved as I already explained and once again, there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are superficial believers mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. Hence, the warnings: Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-3; 6:7-9; 10:39; 12:15 etc.. We also see genuine believers and superficial believers mixed together throughout various churches and throughout various Christian forum sites.

Jude only talks in general about those who did not believe. You can't infer from this one verse that they ALL never at one time believed. There had to be SOME who did believe and had given up along the way. So, Jude isn't talking about all of them being superficial believers.
You make a lot of biased assumptions that are inconclusive. DID NOT BELIEVE settles it for me. Just like in Matthew 7:22-23 we see many people who called Jesus Lord, yet trusted in their works for salvation but were never saved. Jesus clearly stated, I NEVER KNEW YOU. Maybe you interpret that to mean I once knew you but don't anymore? :oops:

If you had read further, Jude even talks about abiding in God:

Jude 1:20 However, you, dear friends, must build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God as you await our Lord Jesus Christ in his mercy, who will grant you eternal life.
Keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original, which answers the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. I don't see a "lose your salvation" warning in this exhortation to believers.

*Ultimately, God promises to keep/preserve His saints (Psalm 37:28; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1).

*Jude 1:24 - Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy. Praise God!

I have found that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS and that has always been a major red flag for me. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I did not believe in eternal security, and I was miserable! I did not believe in eternal security of the believer until I received Christ through faith and became born again. Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,952
1,873
113
The words "stopped abiding" are nowhere found in n 2 John 1:8-9 and instead, we see two camps:

1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ and do not have God" (never did) and
2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son."

I disagree with your eisegesis. Once again, there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are superficial believers mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. Hence, the warnings: Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-3; 6:7-9; 10:39; 12:15 etc.. Have you read these verses and noticed the contrast between genuine believers and unbelievers?

Not all of these people (collectively Jews and Gentiles) were saved as I already explained and once again, there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are superficial believers mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. Hence, the warnings: Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-3; 6:7-9; 10:39; 12:15 etc.. We also see genuine believers and superficial believers mixed together throughout various churches and throughout various Christian forum sites.

You make a lot of biased assumptions that are inconclusive. DID NOT BELIEVE settles it for me. Just like in Matthew 7:22-23 we see many people who called Jesus Lord, yet trusted in their works for salvation but were never saved. Jesus clearly stated, I NEVER KNEW YOU. Maybe you interpret that to mean I once knew you but don't anymore? :oops:

Keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original, which answers the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. I don't see a "lose your salvation" warning in this exhortation to believers.

*Ultimately, God promises to keep/preserve His saints (Psalm 37:28; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1).

*Jude 1:24 - Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy. Praise God!

I have found that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS and that has always been a major red flag for me. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I did not believe in eternal security, and I was miserable! I did not believe in eternal security of the believer until I received Christ through faith and became born again. Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.
The promises of God.

He will never leave nor forsake us
He will continue to do the work he started until the day of Christ
He will keep us from falling
He will raise us from the dead
He has given us every spiritual blessing under christ
He has given us the spirit as a pledge
We will never hunger or thirst, Never die, Live forever, and be raised on the last day.

even after all this, they still believe in insecurity.

Satan is a master deciever
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,178
5,727
113
You two are coming from both sides of the same doctrine what your both saying works together
 

SteveEpperson

Junior Member
May 12, 2018
552
222
43
You cannot build your View of the Word of God based on isolated verses
Wrong!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

This isolated verse sums up the entire gospel. You see it on bumper stickers, cardboard signs at football games, and giant billboards as you drive to work. It's ubiquitous, blessed, and heavenly, standing alone as one of the most important verses in God's Holy Bible.

Another one is:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

What else is there to say to clarify this emphatic statement? How much more "context" do you need?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,585
3,616
113
Wrong!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
What does it mean to believe in Him? Where do you find out what believing in Him means? Can you find it in that verse? Does it mean if i believe a guy named Jesus existed then i am going to be saved or does one have to believe that Jesus was God made manifest in the flesh? And what am i going to be saved from? does that verse tell me what i am going to be saved from? If i believe Jesus existed on earth but don't believe He was raised from the dead will i still be saved? Can i base my salvation on reading that one verse or do i need to read more in the Gospels to understand exactly what believing in Him actually entails???



Another one is:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

What else is there to say to clarify this emphatic statement? How much more "context" do you need?
Ok if it's only about who created the earth then yeah i agree but reading that one verse do you know who God is? or what God is? His will? Indeed if He is a He? Where do you find out all about God so you understand that verse? By reading the Word of God..
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,427
113
58
According to John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Christ. How do you unknow someone?
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge. :)
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,559
656
113
We know lots of people of whom we gained experiencial knowledge about, yet people every day divorce them for various reason or refuse to be in contact with them because they no longer like them.