Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[maxamir]

This particular passage of scripture is very special to me.

I was not saved, I was Catholic but I had become interested by a gospel minister and had bought a bible, the Living bible a version I would heartily recommend.

I was reading this very chapter on a long train journey. All those sins, big black words full of thunder, reprobate ... dear me, how awful it all is.
I turned the page to chapter 2 and got a shock [in the Living bible] "Just a minute, you may be thinking how awful these people are but YOU are doing the very same things"

It fell on me like a ton of bricks. All those people who fall into that great list of sin can be saved ... you may say reprobate means they cannot. When it says God gave them up you may think He has given them up forever. Stop thinking that way. You are or were Just like them. God had mercy upon me and you and He will have mercy.

You speak about Sodom and Gomorrah ... do you believe the present day miracles? Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented and many who are living the reprobate lifestyle today are finding Christ through miracle ministry.

Think carefully.

You fail to realise that absolutely no one knows who the reprobate are except God and the only person that I would dear to think who may be a reprobate are those whose last words in life are cursing God.

The doctrine of God's election is everywhere throughout Scripture so that men would fear God and not think they could save themselves. You would do well to peruse some of those verses below.

I thank God that He chose me for I would have never chosen Him unless He first chose me!

41 Bible Verses about election, to salvation

 

[maxamir]

Systematic theology. Chicken or the egg...

Eph 4:24 has Christians actively putting on the new man which God prepared for them. God prepares > man dresses. This speaks of Christian sons - not infants - doing what they're supposed to do. It does not speak of daddy dressing them.

Col3:10 is similar. 3:9 says Christians have put off the old man and have put on the new man.

Disregarding context and active voice verbs causes problems

You should consider studying Soteriology and loose the wisecracks related to Scripture.

Get back to me when you can tell me who man is according to Scripture.

 

[maxamir]

How can they do anything? Did Adam, who was dead, in faith allow God to cover him with the skin of a dead animal (imagin the horror of this being the first death in all creation?)



Jesus told them how to be born again, By trusting in him, by looking to the cross. ( vs 14 - 18) This is how you are born again, You have it backwards

Romans 1 destroys this argument, they do know who God is, they hide this truth in their hearts and God allows them to do it. Hence since they know who God is, they have no excuse.

Your right, Man can not do anything to be saved, God must save them, But God is not going to force you to be saved. He offeres salvation to all. But we must chose to say yes lord, i want this..


Non of this refutes John 3: 14 - 18

Jesus confirmed that only those who are born again can see the kingdom of God. Faith is the fruit of them that re born again lest you make faith in which someone can boast and therefore destroy the truth of grace.

All men are without excuse for all are given general revelation and natural law to make them accountable before God but it is only the Holy Spirit who brings special revelation to His people by being born again from above and made willing by His power (Psalm 110:3) and not theirs.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

 

[maxamir]

None of that looks or tastes like scripture truth. Where does the scripture say God decreed by secondary causes that man should sin?

It's what men suppose, it is human thinking. The scripture say "Thou shalt not" that was [and is] God's decree.

Do you have electricity in your home? do you allow your children to play with the wires or the electric box? don't you tell them to leave it alone, don't you insulate?

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was I'm sure necessary to creation. But God strictly charged the man to live it alone.

God is Sovereign
Exo 15:18; 1Chr 29:11-12; 2Chr 20:6; Psa 22:28

He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything
Deu 32:39; 1Sam 2:6-8; Job 9:12; Job 12:6-10; Psa 33:11; Psa 115:3; Psa 135:6; Isa 14:24; Isa 45:7; Act 15:18; Eph 1:11

Including matters of “chance”
Pro 16:33; 1Ki 22:20, 34, 37

The wicked actions of men
Gen 45:5; Gen 50:20; Exo 4:21; Jdg 14:1-4; Psa 76:10; Pro 16:4; Isa 44:28; Amos 3:6; Act 2:22-23; Act 4:27-28

The actions of evil spirits
1Sam 16:14-16; 1Ki 22:19-23; 1Chr 21:1/2Sam 24:1

The good actions of men
John 15:16; Eph 2:10; Phi 2:12-13

The actions of good angels
Psa 103:20; Psa 104:4

The actions of animals
Num 22:28; 1Ki 17:4; Psa 29:9; Jer 8:7; Eze 32:4; Dan 6:22

The operations of all creation
Gen 8:22; Psa 104:5-10; Psa 104:13-14; Psa 104:19-20; Mark 4:39

Man is not permitted to question his sovereign acts
Job 33:12-13; Isa 29:16; Isa 45:9-10; Mat 20:1-16; Rom 9:19-24

God elects [i.e. chooses, predestines, foreordains] His angels
1Tim 5:21

His peculiar people, Israel
Exo 6:7; Deu 7:6-8; Deu 10:14-15; Psa 33:12; Isa 43:20-21

Individuals to salvation
Psa 65:4; Mat 24:24; John 6:37; John 15:16; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:10-24; Rom 11:5-7; Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12; 1The 1:4; 1The 5:9; 2The 2:13-14

Individuals to condemnation
Exo 4:21; Rom 9:13; Rom 9:17-18; Rom 9:21-22; 1Pet 2:8

His motivation in election is His own good pleasure
Eph 1:5; 2Tim 1:9

The display of his glory
Isa 43:6-7; Rom 9:22-24; 1Cor 1:27-31; Eph 2:4-7; Pro 16:4

His special love
Deu 7:6-8; 2The 2:13

His foreknowledge
Rom 8:29; 1Pet 1:2

Which means his special love
Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Mat 7:22-23; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19; 1Pet 1:20

But not: Any good [nobility, wisdom, power, choice, seeking] he foresees in anyone
Deu 7:7; Rom 9:11-13; Rom 9:16; Rom 10:20; 1Cor 1:27-29; 1Cor 4:7; 2Tim 1:9

 

[maxamir]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has not realized some things. But your assessment of me is through the lens of strict Reformed theology. So, please pardon me for not accepting your assessment.

As for all of these proof-texts, they're becoming too much in quantity. The ones I've responded to are simply being repeated as if I haven't responded. My experience when in discussions with some having a systematic mindset is that we're dealing with a 6th Sola - Sola System X - which in effect has negated Sola Scriptura.

I'll be ignoring proof-texts until if and when someone wants to discuss one at a time in detail in context and as deep in detail as either of us can go.

if you choose not to submit to Scripture then this conversation is over for this is the reason it is given.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[maxamir]

He can? How?

Did Abraham save himself? No

Did abraham earn the righteousness of God? No

What did paul say?

Romans 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.


5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

As you can see plainly see, it is not of works. But of our faith in God to which and through God credits us as rightious. Just as Paul said in eph 2. we have been saved by GRACE through FAITH and not of ourselves, it is the GIFT OF GOD, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Your trust in someone elses work is not you saving yourself. You can't boast because you did not do anything.


Sorry, But Paul. who taught Gods mercy and grace through faith, Boasted in God. as I do. as Abraham did.\

This nonsensical belief if I trust someone else to do all the work to save me is something I can boast of is just that. Nonsensical. and not found in the word of God

No one is justified by faith in and of itself but by grace through faith in the blood of Christ (Romans 3-5). Those who belong to your man-centred theology think that faith is something that man does within himself and that God therefore saves men upon that condition when Paul clearly boasted not in himself or his abilities but in the grace of God given to him to believe on Christ.

Please look at the chart below. You are currently on the left side which was cast out as heresy by the Protestant church at the Synod of Dordt.

 

[maxamir]

Just a minute the parable of the Sower and His seed does not show that very few were saved. SOME fell on the path way, on rocky soil, among thorns. SOME fell on good [meaning I suppose cultivated] soil and only this seed gave a harvest 30 fold 60 fold and 100 fold.

The saved refers to the soil not the seed.

When you interpret Matt 7 13 you totally transgress all your reformed beliefs. You say they found the way to life, they entered in, through great difficulty.

Who are these who found the narrow gate? if Jesus is the Gate or Door did you find Him? or did He find you? did He send somebody to tell you? to lead you to the door? That's how God works.

John Wesley [whether you agree with all his doctrines or not] found the narrow gate and spent His whole life bringing multitudes with him. Whitefield, Spurgeon.

God's house will be PACKED, you may not see how that can be but I assure you it will be. The devil's crowd will not be the majority on that day.

God's house will be packed indeed with those who are redeemed and by grace brought forth the fruits of the Spirit which only those that are planted in the good soil do.

Men only find the way to life because they are led to it and not because they found it themselves for Scripture confirms there are none who seek it.

I have no time for Wesley the heretic who confessed to his brother in a letter that he never loved God.

John Wesley, False Apostle of Free Will

 

[maxamir]

So God has a free Will and does stuff that He wants. Imagine that.
And what is His purpose in all of this? To do GOOD.
This good being SALVATION! Salvation of the people He foreknew. Saving the souls of men (sons of Jacob and gentile alike) IS THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE of end-time eschatology.

Jesus NAME is Salvation.

Evil men and Satan have a free will too. And they do....evil. On purpose.....to serve their purpose. An evil purpose.

you do not yet understand that God's goodness is also found in His perfectly holy love for justice which is the foundation of the cross of Christ wherein righteous mercy is only given because justice was satisfied and wrath was propitiated in Him.

HIs name is the LORD (Sovereign Ruler) JESUS (God Who Saves) CHRIST (Anointed Prophet, Priest and King of His People).

God is glorified in the goodness of the just damnation of those who die in their sin but those who think God is only love can not see this.

 

[maxamir]

What does "dead" mean in the context of scripture to you?

dead means not alive and because man is spiritually dead to God he needs life and that life is only found in Christ.

 

[maxamir]

Not sure how I could provide such a long post as I did without first understanding my assurance is in the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, now King of kings and Lord of lords sitting at the Right Hand of Power.

my point was that many say they believe and have assurance in Christ but look either in part or in full to themselves rather than cling only to the person and work of Christ for their salvation.

 

[maxamir]

John Hopkins also believes those who profess Jesus as their God, Lord and Savior should be in a straight jacket surrounded by padded walls. You went to a Psych Ward labelled Medical Institution for answers. That speaks volumes.

did you build a strawman because you have absolutely no response to the points that were made?

 

[maxamir]

If you had said that the nation of Israel's ears were blocked and the Gentiles nations listened.
To the Word of truth, the revelation of the Christ. Then I would agree with you. (Romans)

To infer that Paul is discussing sovereign election of any individual, in the letter
to the Romans would be a fatal mistake.

Eisegesis (to draw in), in the sense of any commentator "importing" or "drawing in"
their own subjective interpretations into the text, unsupported by the text itself. (wiki)

A Calvinist cannot quote from the letter to the Romans and ignoring the context.

Like when Jesus demanded our unity, our oneness in Christ?

Our humility?

Our generosity?

Or the bell ringer, take the log out of your own eye...

We are commanded to rightly divide the word of truth as we love even
our enemies. I can guarantee that the Christian world is not even close
on any count, let alone understanding the scripture.

why have you not replied to what I said below? Please show me what I said was false rather than go off on tangents.

you utterly ignore the abundant Scriptures that show that no man seeks after or chooses God without God first choosing them. Man can not and does not want to choose God because he is spiritually dead and to obey God is foolishness to him unless he has been born again by grace who are given new wills to obey God out of gratitude and not merit. Do I need to quote these Scriptures to you?

 

[maxamir]

Absolute rubbish. What a whopper.

Go ahead and trot out your Hyper-Calvinistic theory of how those Israelites in the wildness that were saved by gazing at the bronze serpent were predestinated to do it.

When in fact they decided to do so and then acted upon that FREE WILL decision.

A supposed free will that is enslaved to its cursed nature is not a free will at all.

The parody below typifies those who have your mindset.

 

[Magenta]

All Scripture is given for our application. Please read Psalm 119

Psalm 119:175 plus 146:2

 

[selahsays]

Psalm 119:175 plus 146:2

I sincerely wish you’d please reconsider your panels that detract from the Word of God. …why women? …with tons of makeup?

 

[Evmur]

God's house will be packed indeed with those who are redeemed and by grace brought forth the fruits of the Spirit which only those that are planted in the good soil do.

Men only find the way to life because they are led to it and not because they found it themselves for Scripture confirms there are none who seek it.

I have no time for Wesley the heretic who confessed to his brother in a letter that he never loved God.

John Wesley, False Apostle of Free Will

Bah

 

[Evmur]

you say that predestination has nothing to do with salvation when it is the very foundation of salvation in which any are saved and is a denial of the work of the Godhead in the Father choosing His people for salvation, sending His Son to secure that salvation for them and the Holy Spirit seals it unto them forever. To deny this is to deny the Trinity.

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

You fail to understand the true nature of man after the Fall and somehow think that man who is spiritually dead can choose God. God does the choosing because man can not and will not choose the God he knows but hates. You call God King but according to you He is not powerful enough to choose who He wants to save and those He wills to harden who are vessels for dishonour unto wrath prepared for destruction.

Please answer these questions.

Do you believe in Hell?
Did Christ die for those in Hell?
Does God love those He casts into Hell?

I do not believe in man's choosings or his ability to "choose" or to "accept Christ" or "deciding for Christ"

We are born again not by the will of man or by the will of the flesh but by the will of God. I am in the Sovereign Grace stream of theology.

The difference I have with you is you believe God's purpose in this is to EXCLUDE people, I believe God's purpose in predestination and election is to INCLUDE people.

We are chosen to be a city set upon a hill, not to exclude people but to be a hope and a refuge for the lost and weary of this world where they may find shelter and succour.

The election of the church can be traced to Abraham, he is the father of the election. The purpose was that "in you shall the families of the earth bless themselves" Only Abe and his seed were elect or chosen. But all who rode with him were saved, Lot was saved.

Your comments about Wesley are reprehensible.

 

[John146]

All Scripture is given for our application. Please read Psalm 119

Literal application vs spiritual application

 

[Inquisitor]

if you choose not to submit to Scripture then this conversation is over for this is the reason it is given.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I don't think the entire New Testament had been written at the time that Paul,
penned this letter to Timothy.

So was Paul referring to the Old Testament in your quotation (2 Timothy 3:16)?

Did Paul see his own letters as scripture or as inspired letters?

 

[HeIsHere]

dead means not alive and because man is spiritually dead to God he needs life and that life is only found in Christ.

"Dead" like all words has a range of meaning connected to the context of the passage and the original language, I know you like this meaning best which supports your five point dogma but it is on the reductionist side of interpretation.