Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#5,681
Sep 23, 2014
6,409
1,834
113
#5,681
Cameron143 said:
I understand what you are saying. I'm asking for the particular phrase or sentence that carries the meaning of a "pricked heart".
Click to expand...
It comes from my perception of a broken heart and acts 2:37 renders it "cut to the heart" and "pierced to the heart," and Pharoah was not so "inhuman" to be unaffected by such an event. In the acts case, this compelled the people to ask, "what shall we do?" and in Pharoah's case, he already knew what had been asked and released the Israelites.

I get that you are reluctant to accept anything but the exact words, but thanks for the opportunity to share this perspective with other interested readers that have not already pledged their allegiance to any particular messenger and all that he (or she) proposed scripture to say.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#5,682
Oct 29, 2023
2,468
302
83
#5,682
Cameron143 said:
In that case, Jesus doesn't need to die for those who never believe. There is no need because they will never be given eternal life.

Not that I agree with what you said. Matthew 1:21 tells us that He came to save His people from their sins.
Click to expand...
God is not as parsimonious as you are imagining Him to be, as you make Him in your own image. He is prodigal in His generosity towards sinners.

According to John 13:3, the Father has given all things into Jesus' hands. That includes all people. So, coming to save His people from their sins is to save all people from their sins. He atoned for/propitiated all people's sins. 1 John 2:2
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#5,683
Mar 1, 2022
16,027
5,643
113
62
#5,683
PaulThomson said:
God is not as parsimonious as you are imagining Him to be, as you make Him in your own image. He is prodigal in His generosity towards sinners.

According to John 13:3, the Father has given all things into Jesus' hands. That includes all people. So, coming to save His people from their sins is to save all people from their sins. He atoned for/propitiated all people's sins. 1 John 2:2
Click to expand...
That's not correct. His people limits people to His, not all.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#5,684
Oct 29, 2023
2,468
302
83
#5,684
Cameron143 said:
I understand what you are saying. I'm asking for the particular phrase or sentence that carries the meaning of a "pricked heart".
Click to expand...
Exodus 10:16 'Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, "I have sinned against the LORD God and against you. Now therefore, forgive, I pray you, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that He may take away from me this death only." '

And God showed Pharaoh mercy and took away the locust swarms. He has mercy on whom He is willing, and He has compassion on whom He is willing.
 
B

Burn1986

Active member
#5,685
Mar 4, 2024
767
177
43
#5,685
studier said:
Why do you disagree that hina + subjunctive is substantival? It's a common use and it looks clear that John is simply explaining what God's will is. I have 14 English translations open and all of them interpret it this way.
Click to expand...
What language are you guys talking?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#5,686
Mar 1, 2022
16,027
5,643
113
62
#5,686
PaulThomson said:
Exodus 10:16 'Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, "I have sinned against the LORD God and against you. Now therefore, forgive, I pray you, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that He may take away from me this death only." '

And God showed Pharaoh mercy and took away the locust swarms. He has mercy on whom He is willing, and He has compassion on whom He is willing.
Click to expand...
God exercises mercy all the time, just as He is continually exercising grace. But the passage you shared doesn't say Pharaoh's heart was pricked. A man's conscience can lead him to understand he has sinned. I was wondering if there was a passage that specifically said that Pharaoh's heart was pricked.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#5,687
Oct 29, 2023
2,468
302
83
#5,687
Cameron143 said:
That's not correct. His people limits people to His, not all.
Click to expand...
Why? Because you need that to be so to keep your leaking system afloat? All people are His people. John 13:3 Jesus, knowing that His Father has given all things into His hands.... "

Ps. 82:8 Arise , O God, judge the earth: for you shall inherit all nations.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#5,689
Oct 29, 2023
2,468
302
83
#5,689
Cameron143 said:
God exercises mercy all the time, just as He is continually exercising grace. But the passage you shared doesn't say Pharaoh's heart was pricked. A man's conscience can lead him to understand he has sinned. I was wondering if there was a passage that specifically said that Pharaoh's heart was pricked.
Click to expand...
Why are you looking for the words "heart was pricked"? What do you believe happens when a man's heart is pricked?
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#5,690
Oct 29, 2023
2,468
302
83
#5,690
Cameron143 said:
That's not correct. His people limits people to His, not all.
Click to expand...
Ps. 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world is mine and the fulness thereof.

Is His world also all the world, or just parts that are His ?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#5,691
Mar 1, 2022
16,027
5,643
113
62
#5,691
PaulThomson said:
Why? Because you need that to be so to keep your leaking system afloat? All people are His people. John 13:3 Jesus, knowing that His Father has given all things into His hands.... "

Ps. 82:8 Arise , O God, judge the earth: for you shall inherit all nations.
Click to expand...
There's a difference between having all authority and having a peculiar people to yourself. All people are subject to Him. All people are not His people.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#5,692
Mar 1, 2022
16,027
5,643
113
62
#5,692
PaulThomson said:
Why are you looking for the words "heart was pricked"? What do you believe happens when a man's heart is pricked?
Click to expand...
@Mem said Pharaoh's heart was pricked. I was trying to find out what words in the passage suggested this.
Pricking the heart is the circumcision of the heart that is symbolic of a veil that was concealing truth has been rent.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#5,693
Oct 29, 2023
2,468
302
83
#5,693
Cameron143 said:
@Mem said Pharaoh's heart was pricked. I was trying to find out what words in the passage suggested this.
Pricking the heart is the circumcision of the heart that is symbolic of a veil that was concealing truth has been rent.
Click to expand...
Why are you equating pricking of the heart with circumcision of the heart?
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#5,694
Oct 29, 2023
2,468
302
83
#5,694
Cameron143 said:
There's a difference between having all authority and having a peculiar people to yourself. All people are subject to Him. All people are not His people.
Click to expand...
Ps. 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world is mine and the fulness thereof.

Does the world and the fulness thereof not include all the people of all the nations?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#5,695
Mar 1, 2022
16,027
5,643
113
62
#5,695
PaulThomson said:
Ps. 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world is mine and the fulness thereof.

Is His world also all the world, or just parts that are His ?
Click to expand...
God, by virtue of creation, owns all things. Thus, God has authority over all things. Jesus in Matthew 28:19 relays that God has transferred that authority to Him. So in creation, all things belong to God. But only those who are apart of the new creation are His people that He came to save.
Surely you see the difference.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#5,698
Oct 29, 2023
2,468
302
83
#5,698
Cameron143 said:
God, by virtue of creation, owns all things. Thus, God has authority over all things. Jesus in Matthew 28:19 relays that God has transferred that authority to Him. So in creation, all things belong to God. But only those who are apart of the new creation are His people that He came to save.
Surely you see the difference.
Click to expand...
No. I don't see the difference. You just said that "all things belong to God," which means all things are His. But then you immediately contradict that statement, by saying that only new creation people are His, i.e. only new creation people belong to God: excluding all other people from the "all things" you had just said are "His".
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#5,699
Mar 1, 2022
16,027
5,643
113
62
#5,699
PaulThomson said:
Why do you believe the Bible does?
Click to expand...
Because the Bible speaks of the heart being pricked as a part of salvation and of the circumcision made without hands. Also, that physical circumcision is a shadow of spiritual circumcision.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#5,700
Mar 1, 2022
16,027
5,643
113
62
#5,700
PaulThomson said:
No. I don't see the difference. You just said that "all things belong to God," which means all things are His. But then you immediately contradict that statement, by saying that only new creation people are His, i.e. only new creation people belong to God: excluding all other people from the "all things" you had just said are "His".
Click to expand...
Let's say the neighborhood kids come over to my house. Everyone there I have authority over because I own the property. But only my kids are my people because we have an intimate relationship.
In creation all people belong to God. Not everyone are in an intimate relationship with Him.
The Jewish nation is a good example. While all people in all nations belonged to God by virtue of creation, not all nations were in an intimate relationship with God. Israel was particularly called the people of God. They were His chosen people. Likewise, in 1 Peter 2:9, saved people are called a peculiar and chosen people.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.