Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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As a Jew, who is familiar with the Books mentioned in the Mikra, specifically in the Torah, we know for a fact a Book existed before God gave Moses the Torah. This Book was in existence to the Jews even after God gave Moses the Torah and it not only covers the same thing God told Moses in the Torah but it even goes deeper into detail. And even though the RCC did not accept it for the Canon [they believed it was LOST but the Jews had it hidden], Jews don't go by what the Gentiles think on which is Canon and not. The Jews know the Canon the Gentiles use today doesn't even completely match the true Hebrew Old Testament which God gave to the Jews.
But I am not here trying to make this relevant only to say you mentioned Enoch and we do have materials that fill in the blanks about Enoch our current Book of Genesis does not cover. And this Book was mentioned as Book of TRUTH by both Joshua and King David, which is the Lineage Jesus came from. I am obviously talking about the Book of Jasher.
So let's look at what Jasher tells us more about what Enoch did or not do.
1 And Enoch lived sixty-five years and he begat Methuselah; and Enoch walked with God after having begot Methuselah, and he served the Lord, and despised the evil ways of men.
2 And the soul of Enoch was wrapped up in the instruction of the Lord, in knowledge and in understanding; and he wisely retired from the sons of men, and secreted himself from them for many days.
3 And it was at the expiration of many years, whilst he was serving the Lord, and praying before him in his house, that an angel of the Lord called to him from Heaven, and he said, Here am I.
4 And he said, Rise, go forth from thy house and from the place where thou dost hide thyself, and appear to the sons of men, in order that thou mayest teach them the way in which they should go and the work which they must accomplish to enter in the ways of God.
5 And Enoch rose up according to the word of the Lord, and went forth from his house, from his place and from the chamber in which he was concealed; and he went to the sons of men and taught them the ways of the Lord, and at that time assembled the sons of men and acquainted them with the instruction of the Lord.
6 And he ordered it to be proclaimed in all places where the sons of men dwelt, saying, Where is the man who wishes to know the ways of the Lord and good works? let him come to Enoch.
7 And all the sons of men then assembled to him, for all who desired this thing went to Enoch, and Enoch reigned over the sons of men according to the word of the Lord, and they came and bowed to him and they heard his word.
8 And the spirit of God was upon Enoch, and he taught all his men the wisdom of God and his ways, and the sons of men served the Lord all the days of Enoch, and they came to hear his wisdom.
9 And all the kings of the sons of men, both first and last, together with their princes and judges, came to Enoch when they heard of his wisdom, and they bowed down to him, and they also required of Enoch to reign over them, to which he consented.
10 And they assembled in all, one hundred and thirty kings and princes, and they made Enoch king over them and they were all under his power and command.
11 And Enoch taught them wisdom, knowledge, and the ways of the Lord; and he made peace amongst them, and peace was throughout the earth during the life of Enoch.
12 And Enoch reigned over the sons of men two hundred and forty-three years, and he did justice and righteousness with all his people, and he led them in the ways of the Lord.
^
As we clearly can see, Enoch, chose to serve God and despise the evil ways of men and he even went to a remote place to be far away from men so he could be alone with God.
^
Once again, what Enoch did is proven in Acts 17:
26 And he (GOD) made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth...
27 that they should seek God
And Enoch did exactly like Acts 17 describes and the Book of Jasher also verifies this
But I am not here trying to make this relevant only to say you mentioned Enoch and we do have materials that fill in the blanks about Enoch our current Book of Genesis does not cover. And this Book was mentioned as Book of TRUTH by both Joshua and King David, which is the Lineage Jesus came from. I am obviously talking about the Book of Jasher.
So let's look at what Jasher tells us more about what Enoch did or not do.
1 And Enoch lived sixty-five years and he begat Methuselah; and Enoch walked with God after having begot Methuselah, and he served the Lord, and despised the evil ways of men.
2 And the soul of Enoch was wrapped up in the instruction of the Lord, in knowledge and in understanding; and he wisely retired from the sons of men, and secreted himself from them for many days.
3 And it was at the expiration of many years, whilst he was serving the Lord, and praying before him in his house, that an angel of the Lord called to him from Heaven, and he said, Here am I.
4 And he said, Rise, go forth from thy house and from the place where thou dost hide thyself, and appear to the sons of men, in order that thou mayest teach them the way in which they should go and the work which they must accomplish to enter in the ways of God.
5 And Enoch rose up according to the word of the Lord, and went forth from his house, from his place and from the chamber in which he was concealed; and he went to the sons of men and taught them the ways of the Lord, and at that time assembled the sons of men and acquainted them with the instruction of the Lord.
6 And he ordered it to be proclaimed in all places where the sons of men dwelt, saying, Where is the man who wishes to know the ways of the Lord and good works? let him come to Enoch.
7 And all the sons of men then assembled to him, for all who desired this thing went to Enoch, and Enoch reigned over the sons of men according to the word of the Lord, and they came and bowed to him and they heard his word.
8 And the spirit of God was upon Enoch, and he taught all his men the wisdom of God and his ways, and the sons of men served the Lord all the days of Enoch, and they came to hear his wisdom.
9 And all the kings of the sons of men, both first and last, together with their princes and judges, came to Enoch when they heard of his wisdom, and they bowed down to him, and they also required of Enoch to reign over them, to which he consented.
10 And they assembled in all, one hundred and thirty kings and princes, and they made Enoch king over them and they were all under his power and command.
11 And Enoch taught them wisdom, knowledge, and the ways of the Lord; and he made peace amongst them, and peace was throughout the earth during the life of Enoch.
12 And Enoch reigned over the sons of men two hundred and forty-three years, and he did justice and righteousness with all his people, and he led them in the ways of the Lord.
^
As we clearly can see, Enoch, chose to serve God and despise the evil ways of men and he even went to a remote place to be far away from men so he could be alone with God.
^
Once again, what Enoch did is proven in Acts 17:
26 And he (GOD) made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth...
27 that they should seek God
And Enoch did exactly like Acts 17 describes and the Book of Jasher also verifies this
Just to point something out here...When I went through Mishnah and we were studying the Torah. And in the Torah when we read in Genesis 5:
21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he fathered Methuselah.
22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
23 Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
^
We already were familiar with Jasher and have filled in the blanks automatically about the details of Enoch.
Sadly, Christians, do not have that luxury because they believe the RCC Council was an Act of God and do not bother studying the other ancient books.
Some are definitely pure baloney, but not all of them.
21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he fathered Methuselah.
22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
23 Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
^
We already were familiar with Jasher and have filled in the blanks automatically about the details of Enoch.
Sadly, Christians, do not have that luxury because they believe the RCC Council was an Act of God and do not bother studying the other ancient books.
Some are definitely pure baloney, but not all of them.
What scripture says is that those who are perishing consider the gospel foolishness, and those who are being saved consider it the power of God. When someone begins to understand the gospel, they stop their movement downward into the murky waters that descend into complete destruction and begin to ascend towards the clear waters of salvation. You can be falling at any depth within the toxic disintegrating sludge of destruction when you start to reverse course and move toward the light coming from above through the clear waters of salvation. At that point, you become one who is "being saved". Being saved is not the same as fully saved. "Being saved" is "being in the process of becoming saved."
The difference between those who are sinking and perishing and those who are moving away from destruction toward the light, is that the sinking/perishing do not believe God loves them, but those aspiring upward and Godward have begun to recognise the love of God for sinners demonstrated in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why are some of those perishing changing their minds about God, but others who are perishing are not? Those who change began to honestly assess their situation and realise it is dysfunctional and they begin to turn from that darkness in disgust. That shift of focus away from the dark depths below is automatically a refocus towards the lighter waters above, and that looks more attractive and hopeful than the slimy brackish hopeless darkness into which they had been descending.
The difference between those who are sinking and perishing and those who are moving away from destruction toward the light, is that the sinking/perishing do not believe God loves them, but those aspiring upward and Godward have begun to recognise the love of God for sinners demonstrated in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why are some of those perishing changing their minds about God, but others who are perishing are not? Those who change began to honestly assess their situation and realise it is dysfunctional and they begin to turn from that darkness in disgust. That shift of focus away from the dark depths below is automatically a refocus towards the lighter waters above, and that looks more attractive and hopeful than the slimy brackish hopeless darkness into which they had been descending.
I don't know why this concept seems so difficult to so many.
@Cameron143 has the understanding that man has not lost his faculties. I agree.
It seems very simple that fallen man is still able to to realize that there has to be something better and to seek it. And within this realization it also seems simple that some realize the mess of life they found themselves in was based in decisions they had made and nonsense they had listened to from men. IOW, the realization can be very simple - if the someone of Rom1 created the creation, then He likely has a vastly greater knowledge of things than the so-called experts among men and than me.
@Cameron143 has the understanding that man has not lost his faculties. I agree.
It seems very simple that fallen man is still able to to realize that there has to be something better and to seek it. And within this realization it also seems simple that some realize the mess of life they found themselves in was based in decisions they had made and nonsense they had listened to from men. IOW, the realization can be very simple - if the someone of Rom1 created the creation, then He likely has a vastly greater knowledge of things than the so-called experts among men and than me.
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the Bible does speak of salvation in three tenses. you have been saved (Eph2), are being saved (1 Cor 1; 2 Cor 2), and shall be saved (Rom 5). i believe it means regeneration, sanctification, and glorification. justification leads inevitably to glorification (Rom 8).
those passages are never speaking of the lost, however.
those passages are never speaking of the lost, however.
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OO let me try the shop owner story!!
Before he can read the sign that says that anyone that so much as cracks a teacup will be set on fire and left to burn to smoking ashes, the Calvinist China shop owner pulls a severely nearsighted man's glasses off and throws them into his store. Then he tells him, "So, I'm giving you no more than 2 minutes. Now, go find your glasses or you're toast! Have a good day!"
Before he can read the sign that says that anyone that so much as cracks a teacup will be set on fire and left to burn to smoking ashes, the Calvinist China shop owner pulls a severely nearsighted man's glasses off and throws them into his store. Then he tells him, "So, I'm giving you no more than 2 minutes. Now, go find your glasses or you're toast! Have a good day!"
[Jhn 3:19-20 KJV]
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
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Man can believe all kinds of lies but he cannot believe the truth.
Man has to be rendered utterly bereft of reason in order for God to magnify Himself.
This "philosphy" often appeals to people of certain personality types and there is some good work on the personality of Augustine who formulated this view.
If you are interested and have not come across it ...I can send you the link since you are a studier.
Scripture never states man cannot be persuaded by truth and has many instances where indeed people are persuaded.
Man has to be rendered utterly bereft of reason in order for God to magnify Himself.
This "philosphy" often appeals to people of certain personality types and there is some good work on the personality of Augustine who formulated this view.
If you are interested and have not come across it ...I can send you the link since you are a studier.
Scripture never states man cannot be persuaded by truth and has many instances where indeed people are persuaded.
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Man can believe all kinds of lies but he cannot believe the truth.
Man has to be rendered utterly bereft of reason in order for God to magnify Himself.
This "philosphy" often appeals to people of certain personality types and there is some good work on the personality of Augustine who formulated this view.
If you are interested and have not come across it ...I can send you the link since you are a studier.
Scripture never states man cannot be persuaded by truth and has many instances where indeed people are persuaded.
Man has to be rendered utterly bereft of reason in order for God to magnify Himself.
This "philosphy" often appeals to people of certain personality types and there is some good work on the personality of Augustine who formulated this view.
If you are interested and have not come across it ...I can send you the link since you are a studier.
Scripture never states man cannot be persuaded by truth and has many instances where indeed people are persuaded.
funny you chose the word persuaded. that's the meaning of the Greek word peithó, which is the root of pistis, meaning faith. Who's the Truth, again?
…persuaded by the Holy Spirit. Amen.
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
- John 16:13-14 (NKJV)
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
- John 16:13-14 (NKJV)
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