Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. ...
The sheepfold is the one pen into which all the Jewish shepherds were keeping their sheep overnight. The sheepfold is not a flock of sheep. Jesus had other sheep in gentile sheepfolds under other shepherds that he would bring together into one Jewish-Genile church sheepfold.

That verse doesn't help you.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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God does move first. He moves in the Believer to be the VOICE that shares the Gospel to anyone they can find.

Look at the Prophets.
They did not single anyone out.
They arrived and began preaching to everyone walking by near them around the vicinity.

That is how God makes the First Move.
Are you now denying your previous claim that the Holy Spirit convicts them after their ears are open by the Word of God? How God moves in your life may have no impact at all on how He is moving in another person's life. To claim your experience is God moving first in their life just seems a bit far-fetched, as well as saying it is you who is making these divine appointments.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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That's exactly why I added a disclaimer to my posts!
Maybe educating yourself about the fallacy, so you can identify it and stop doing it, would be the wise thing for you to do in future; rather than continuing to fall into the same ditch for another decade or two.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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Are you now denying your previous claim that the Holy Spirit convicts them after their ears are open by the Word of God? How God moves in your life may have no impact at all on how He is moving in another person's life. To claim your experience is God moving first in their life just seems a bit far-fetched, as well as it is you who is making these divine appointments.
Let's see, I said:
the Prophets spoke
the Preacher preaches
the Teacher teaches
We give our Testimony verbally

Speaking is done first and while they hear the Holy Spirit opens their ears.
^
I have said this in every post.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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Are you now denying your previous claim that the Holy Spirit convicts them after their ears are open by the Word of God? How God moves in your life may have no impact at all on how He is moving in another person's life. To claim your experience is God moving first in their life just seems a bit far-fetched, as well as saying it is you who is making these divine appointments.
Believing the one, does not mean you have to deny the other.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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The sheepfold is the one pen into which all the Jewish shepherds were keeping their sheep overnight. The sheepfold is not a flock of sheep. Jesus had other sheep in gentile sheepfolds under other shepherds that he would bring together into one Jewish-Genile church sheepfold.

That verse doesn't help you.
Makes no sense. The verse is speaking symbolically and spiritually, not literally. In any event, The Bible should only be
compared to the Bible for understanding, not to the historical, temporal, or cultural. Anyway, Christ alone is the Shepherd.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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"The whole world" is pretty inclusive...
I don't particularly care to go through what is and is not being said in John 3:16. I already know what the fallout that will follow will be. But as someone who parses words carefully, I'm sure you realize that the word whole is not included in the verse.
 

BillyBob

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Dec 20, 2023
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Again, I agree. I didn't ask the question because I was struggling for an answer. I asked it to open up others within their own assumptions, ie...what are the logical implications of what they profess.
I knew you needed no answer, just giving a proof text to support what you are saying....;)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I don't particularly care to go through what is and is not being said in John 3:16. I already know what the fallout that will follow will be. But as someone who parses words carefully, I'm sure you realize that the word whole is not included in the verse.
He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.1 John 2:2

You may want to limit your scope to John 3:16 but I see no reason for me to...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Let's see, I said:
the Prophets spoke
the Preacher preaches
the Teacher teaches
We give our Testimony verbally

Speaking is done first and while they hear the Holy Spirit opens their ears.
^
I have said this in every post.
I don't see it in every post you have made. The last couple or few yes. But that is still quite an
assumption to make. I mean, I heard lots of preaching and whatnot and it never opened my ears.
I listened to preaching for years and years and it did nothing at all for me but bore me eventually.
Then I departed the church for years, wandering the world, and began seeking. God opened my ears.
He spoke. I heard. I wonder why it is so hard for some to admit that God moves first in the lives
of unbelievers. I am not saying God does not use people to teach and preach. However, I do very
much doubt that is the only way people are moved. Some come to belief by reading, or seeking
truth in some other fashion when and/or where God reveals Himself. That is one of His promises.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.1 John 2:2

You may want to limit your scope to John 3:16 but I see no reason for me to...
A propitiation satisfies wrath. Why do unbelievers remain under the wrath of God if Jesus is their propitiation?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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A propitiation satisfies wrath. Why do unbelievers remain under the wrath of God if Jesus is their propitiation?
Unbelievers remain under God’s wrath due to their sin and rebellion against Him (John 3:36).
Though God patiently endures unbelievers with the desire that they would repent (2 Peter 3:9),
the Bible warns that “the wrath of God remains” on those who do not obey Jesus Christ (John 3:36).
We were once children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3b ~ Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
Man is justified by faith. Romans 3:28. Faith is counted for righteousness. Unbelievers suppress the truth.



John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.:)
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Unbelievers remain under God’s wrath due to their sin and rebellion against Him (John 3:36).
Though God patiently endures unbelievers with the desire that they would repent (2 Peter 3:9),
the Bible warns that “the wrath of God remains” on those who do not obey Jesus Christ (John 3:36).
We were once children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3b ~ Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
Man is justified by faith. Romans 3:28. Faith is counted for righteousness. Unbelievers suppress the truth.
I thought your claim was that Jesus was the propitiation for the whole world. If He is, God's wrath has been satisfied. Hence, no one is under God's wrath any longer because God's wrath no longer exists.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I thought your claim was that Jesus was the propitiation for the whole world. If He is, God's wrath has
been satisfied. Hence, no one is under God's wrath any longer because God's wrath no longer exists.
It is Scripture that says He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

What you say is not what the Scriptures say. I gave the verses. God's wrath remains
on them because they reject the Truth. If I send you a package and you refuse to
open the door to receive it, you cannot blame me for not receiving what was sent.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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It is Scripture that says He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

What you say is not what the Scriptures say. I gave the verses. God's wrath remains
on them because they reject the Truth. If I send you a package and you refuse to
open the door to receive it, you cannot blame me for not receiving what was sent.
It can't be both ways. God's wrath cannot be satisfied and not satisfied.
I understand what the scripture says. I'm suggesting it means something other than what is suggested in the apparent meaning of the verse.
But this is why I didn't care to delve into the verses. But either propitiation doesn't mean complete satisfaction of a matter or the phrase but for the sins of of the whole world means something else. Both cannot be true.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
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Ah yes, so that's where Calvinist get it their smugness in logical fallacy! It makes so much sense now.
Humble thyself before the dead Calvinist gods or perish!
unless you are humbled before God to submit to His truth that salvation belongs to Him and not your choice you will remain judicially blinded for God resists the proud and only gives grace to the humble.

freewilltrapp.jpg
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
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It can't be both ways. God's wrath cannot be satisfied and not satisfied.
I understand what the scripture says. I'm suggesting it means something other than what is suggested in the apparent meaning of the verse.
But this is why I didn't care to delve into the verses. But either propitiation doesn't mean complete satisfaction of a matter or the phrase but for the sins of of the whole world means something else. Both cannot be true.
I have to admit that this part of God's word is not clear to me. I will have to give it some thought. It could mean not for the Jew only but also for gentiles. But who was the message addressed to? This will take some thought on my part!
 

maxamir

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Mar 8, 2024
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Yet you and the tribe use 1Cor2:14 that clearly says "not able" to understand.

This is an example of why looking at the Scriptures you use to substantiate your theory proves your theory doesn't work. You're modifying and misinterpreting the Scripture.

It looks to me that this is why you do not want to analyze Scriptures in context. They look good on posters as purported proof-texts, but they don't hold up when read in context.
until you are humbled by God to realise that men can not seek God because they do not want to seek God, you will continue to pervert the Gospel by claiming otherwise.
 

maxamir

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Mar 8, 2024
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that's rubbish and you have nothing to say I have not heard before. you do what so many angry Calvinists do....rather than address scripture posted by non-Cals, you attack the person.

cheap shots, name calling, devisive and nasty scripture twisting posts are the calling card of Calvinists who have been taught to address people rather than scripture

it does not work for someone who is secure in Christ and understands the gospel as do I
if you consistently continue to believe what you do then you are deceived into a false gospel and a false Christ who can not save anyone.

1. The Christ of Arminianism - loves every individual person in the world and sincerely desires their salvation.

The Christ of the Bible - earnestly loves and desires the salvation of only those whom God has unconditionally chosen to salvation. (Ps. 5:5, Ps. 7:11, Ps. 11:5, Matt. 11:27, John 17:9-10, Acts 2:47, Acts 13:48, Rom. 9:10-13, Rom. 9:21-24, Eph. 1:3-4)

2. The Christ of Arminianism - offers salvation to every sinner and does all in his power to bring them to salvation. His offer and work are often frustrated, for many refuse to come.

The Christ of the Bible - effectually calls to Himself only the elect and sovereignly brings them to salvation. Not one of them will be lost. (Isa. 55:11, John 5:21, John 6:37-40, John 10:25-30, John 17:2, Phil. 2:13)

3. The Christ of Arminianism - can not regenerate and save a sinner who does not first choose Christ with his own "free will." All men have a "free will" by which they can either accept or reject Christ. That "free will" may not be violated by Christ.

The Christ of the Bible - sovereignly regenerates the elect sinner apart from his choice, for without regeneration the spiritually dead sinner can not choose Christ. Faith is not man's contribution to salvation but the gift of Christ which He sovereignly imparts in regeneration. (John 3:3, John 6:44 & 65, John 15:16, Acts 11:18, Rom. 9:16, Eph. 2:1,Eph. 2:8-10, Phil. 1:29, Hebr. 12:2)

4. The Christ of Arminianism - died on the cross for every individual person and thereby made it possible for every person to be saved. His death, apart from the choice of man, was not able to actually save anyone for many for whom he died are lost.

The Christ of the Bible - died for only God's elect people and thereby actually obtained salvation for all those for whom He died. His death was a substitutionary satisfaction which actually took away the guilt of His chosen people. (Luke 19:10, John 10:14-15 & 26, Acts 20:28, Rom. 5:10, Eph. 5:25, Hebr. 9:12, I Peter 3:18)

5. The Christ of Arminianism - loses many whom he has "saved" because they do not continue in faith. Even if he does give them "eternal security," as some say, that security is not based upon his will or work but the choice which the sinner made when he accepted Christ.

The Christ of the Bible - preserves His chosen people so that they can not lose their salvation but persevere in the faith to the very end. He preserves them by the sovereign electing will of God, the power of His death, and the mighty working of His Spirit. (John 5:24, John 10:26-29, Rom. 8:29-30, Rom. 8:35-39, I Peter 1:2-5, Jude 24-25)

As you can see, although the Christ of Arminianism and the Christ of the Bible may at first seem to be the same, they are very different. One is a false Christ. The other is the true Christ. One is weak and helpless. He bows before the sovereign "free will" of man. The other is the reigning Lord Who wills what He pleases and sovereignly accomplishes all that He wills.

If you believe and serve the Christ of Arminianism, you must recognize the fact that you do not serve the Christ of the Bible. You have been deceived! Study the Scriptures and learn of the True Christ. Pray for grace to repent and trust Christ as your sovereign Savior.