Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Evmur]

I would rather say that Adam fulfilled God's predestined plan in his rebellion for the purpose of God's greater glory which was made before time began and the foundation of the world.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

well your 1st statement is not scripture, does not look like scripture nor does it smell or taste like scripture.

Of the scriptures you do quote 2 Tim.1:9 says
... who has saved us and called us with a holy calling.

The saving and the calling are two different events. Election pertains to the calling with a holy calling,
The other scriptures you quote are all about the church and our election unto it. They do not exclude any from being saved.

 

[Evmur]

the church is made up of His elect from among all nations, tribes, people and tongues (Rev 7:9) They obey God and do good deeds not to get eternal life but because they already have eternal life.

Christ did not tell the goats that they were disobedient in service to the brethren because the goats are not brethren to the sheep even though they called Christ Lord as also did those He said He did not know in Matthew 7:21-23.

Those who populate the New Earth are the redeemed Bride of the Lord (Rev 21:2).

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

elect from all nations, that is chosen out of all nations, we are not of the nations though we be in the nations. We are the nation of God. Nor are the Jews the nations.

In that day no-one will have the choice but to call Him Lord.
The goats are not the sheep
the sheep are not "these My brethren"
"these My brethren" are the church.

I think our dwelling is in heaven.
Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

 

[Evmur]

their time came and they missed it as was foretold which indeed turned out to be beneficial for all people throughout the whole world in Paul's lifetime as he confirmed in his letter to the Romans, proving that the time of the Gentiles were being fulfilled and that there is no more true descendants of Abraham except for those who are Abraham's seed in Christ.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "THEIR SOUND HAS GONE OUT TO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Israel that you know of today is a satanic counterfeit of the Israel of old as Christ had warned.

Rev 2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

"...in Paul's lifetime" is nonsense and misses the case altogether for by Israel transgression was brought about the eternal sacrifice which has brought about salvation for all generations.

The Jews are a UNIQUE people, nobody looks like them, nobody sounds like them and nobody thinks like them. Did you ever hear of the shibboleth? I got this from the Jews themselves. In their speech they have a lisp, a click of the tongue by which Jews recognise each other, whether they be truly Jewish or not.

God has kept them apart during all their long diaspora. Read profane history, you will see that whenever the Jews have sought to integrate with the nations in which they were they have been cruelly persecuted.

I don't give a hoot for your viewpoint for this reason ... God says concerning Israel "it shall come to pass in the last days"

In the last days Israel will be the greatest nation and Jerusalem will become the greatest city" And when Jesus comes He comes to Jerusalem.

 

[JohnDB]

First off....
Scripture does address Calvinism...and because hermeneutics are lacking people do not recognize that John and Jesus smash this theology to pieces.

The man born blind in John is all about calvinism vx Corporate sin vx individual sin...and it's exactly the same argument with just a few words different each time.
Calvinists like to argue that it's different....but it isn't.

What causes a person to be saved vx not saved? (Sin) was it corporate sin or individual sin that caused God to elect or not elect a person?

God is omniscient...and Sovereign....but that doesn't mean that God causes every outcome everywhere in the world. God would have created robots if that's what He wanted. GOD is perfectly efficient. So this notion of God being some sort of grand puppeteer is of course false. Nobody creates things to go not as directed if this were true.

Choose ye this day whom you will serve but as for me and my house....

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Cornelius was told that God chooses who He wants to reveal Himself to and not the other way around as you foolishly assume.

You utterly missed the point, but you do that on purpose. Whoever brain washed you did one heck of a job. The story of Cornelius shows that he was not utterly depraved. Read the story. He and his family became saved. God told Peter that Gentiles were not unclean, that they could be converted. The Holy Spirit moved and Cornelius and his family were saved. THAT is the point!! smh

 

[Inquisitor]

Cornelius was told that God chooses who He wants to reveal Himself to and not the other way around as you foolishly assume.

Act 10:40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,
Act 10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Stop robbing God of the glory of His salvation!

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You may have an erroneous interpretation and I can prove it.

Arthur Pink is, in fact, quoting out of the context of Romans.

Here is an example of, "foreknew", in the letter to the Romans.

Romans 11: 1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

As you can easily observe, Paul says that Israel was previously known by God.

The Gentiles were not previously known by God.

God had foreknowledge of Israel and Israel had foreknowledge of God.

God had a former knowledge, a relationship with Israel.

"God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew."

God has not rejected Israel whom He formerly knew!

Not even Arthur Pink spotted the obvious usage of "foreknew" in the text.

It pays to read the text very carefully.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

All I can say, now, after reading a lot of the Posts in this Thread, is: "Oh, dear"!!

 

[Inquisitor]

It seems much gets repeated and much gets left out of these back and forths. For instance, I do not believe anyone has said that man is incapable of responding to God. And I know you have objected to the idea of total depravity before, while seeming to not grasp that it basically means that God must move first. It is not exclusive to Calvinism either. Total depravity is irrefutably presented as a defining characteristic of the natural man in Arminianism also, as well as in Molinism, as it simply summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man before a holy God. Now we have people who are essentially saying that God moving first makes Him a tyrant Who is kidnapping people against their will to force them into marrying him. Even though we are told that Christ made us alive while we were still dead in our sins, some want to believe they needed no help from God at all.

I doubt whether anyone understands the mystery of salvation, why a few respond
and the vast majority refuse to respond to the gospel.

There are a number of facts that are beyond debate though.

1) Satan runs the world and mankind follows his will, not God's will.

2) Jesus Christ and the gospel were predestined from eternity.

3) The gospel is a narrow path and few follow that path.

4) Christian conversion is in rapid decline, is that because God's
election is in rapid decline. Or is that rapid decline attributed
to an overwhelming level of temptation and distraction?

5) Do some listen to the gospel then believe and receive the Holy Spirit,
then fall away, as the seed parable states? Which is impossible in Calvinism.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

Arthur Pink?!! "PINKY", to his friends? Because he stuck his pinky out, when he sipped his tea?!

 

[Evmur]

their time came and they missed it as was foretold which indeed turned out to be beneficial for all people throughout the whole world in Paul's lifetime as he confirmed in his letter to the Romans, proving that the time of the Gentiles were being fulfilled and that there is no more true descendants of Abraham except for those who are Abraham's seed in Christ.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "THEIR SOUND HAS GONE OUT TO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Israel that you know of today is a satanic counterfeit of the Israel of old as Christ had warned.

Rev 2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

You are arguing against yourself and everything you believe in. The covenant God made with Abraham and his seed "of your own loins" is an everlasting covenant, if their covenant cannot be trusted then neither can the contract you have with God.

If their election is not irrevocable then neither is your own. Your own theology falls apart.

 

[maxamir]

well your 1st statement is not scripture, does not look like scripture nor does it smell or taste like scripture.

Of the scriptures you do quote 2 Tim.1:9 says
... who has saved us and called us with a holy calling.

The saving and the calling are two different events. Election pertains to the calling with a holy calling,
The other scriptures you quote are all about the church and our election unto it. They do not exclude any from being saved.

was it God's predestined plan for Christ to come into the world to save His people?

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

You foolishly still can not understand that the word us in Scripture is written about those who are granted grace to be saved and not those who are never granted grace and die in their sin.

Gal 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

Your hypo-grace hypothetical universalism is unbiblical and robs God of His glory.

 

[maxamir]

elect from all nations, that is chosen out of all nations, we are not of the nations though we be in the nations. We are the nation of God. Nor are the Jews the nations.

In that day no-one will have the choice but to call Him Lord.
The goats are not the sheep
the sheep are not "these My brethren"
"these My brethren" are the church.

I think our dwelling is in heaven.
Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

the sheep are those Christ laid down His life for from among the whole world.

Joh 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Not all are sheep!

Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

 

[maxamir]

"...in Paul's lifetime" is nonsense and misses the case altogether for by Israel transgression was brought about the eternal sacrifice which has brought about salvation for all generations.

The Jews are a UNIQUE people, nobody looks like them, nobody sounds like them and nobody thinks like them. Did you ever hear of the shibboleth? I got this from the Jews themselves. In their speech they have a lisp, a click of the tongue by which Jews recognise each other, whether they be truly Jewish or not.

God has kept them apart during all their long diaspora. Read profane history, you will see that whenever the Jews have sought to integrate with the nations in which they were they have been cruelly persecuted.

I don't give a hoot for your viewpoint for this reason ... God says concerning Israel "it shall come to pass in the last days"

In the last days Israel will be the greatest nation and Jerusalem will become the greatest city" And when Jesus comes He comes to Jerusalem.

your false dispensational Zionist Christian eschatology is resulting in the current chaos throughout the world which is leading to WW3 and people like yourself foolishly wish to see this world blown up in order to somehow think you can quicken the coming of Christ and be removed from any suffering through an unbiblical rapture.

You have been deceived by Darby and Schofield into thinking the current nation of Israel is fulfilling prophecy when in fact it is a counterfeit of Satan to deceive those who do not love the truth.

The proof of your false eschatology is the perverted Gospel people like yourself proclaim which in itself is the greatest judgement God can place upon anyone.

I have now warned you many times that the true Jew according to Scripture is not he who is born of the flesh but he who is born again in Christ's New Covenant. God saves by grace and not by race. He has one wife and not two!

 

[maxamir]

You utterly missed the point, but you do that on purpose. Whoever brain washed you did one heck of a job. The story of Cornelius shows that he was not utterly depraved. Read the story. He and his family became saved. God told Peter that Gentiles were not unclean, that they could be converted. The Holy Spirit moved and Cornelius and his family were saved. THAT is the point!! smh

I thank God that He washed my brain from the devil's false man-centred gospel which does not save anyone.

Man is not absolutely depraved but totally depraved because he is enslaved to sin and Satan which you somehow continue to deny because you have not yet seen yourself before the perfect holiness of God to be able to understand how unworthy you are of the awesome grace that Christ provided for those He loves.

 

[maxamir]

You may have an erroneous interpretation and I can prove it.

Arthur Pink is, in fact, quoting out of the context of Romans.

Here is an example of, "foreknew", in the letter to the Romans.

Romans 11: 1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

As you can easily observe, Paul says that Israel was previously known by God.

The Gentiles were not previously known by God.

God had foreknowledge of Israel and Israel had foreknowledge of God.

God had a former knowledge, a relationship with Israel.

"God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew."

God has not rejected Israel whom He formerly knew!

Not even Arthur Pink spotted the obvious usage of "foreknew" in the text.

It pays to read the text very carefully.

Romans was written to the brethren who were made up of both Jew and Gentile and it is both that are foreknown by God before the foundation of the world.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 11:1-2 is speaking of those among the nation of Israel who were foreknown by God unto salvation and called the remnant and not every person with an Israeli passport!

Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[maxamir]

You are arguing against yourself and everything you believe in. The covenant God made with Abraham and his seed "of your own loins" is an everlasting covenant, if their covenant cannot be trusted then neither can the contract you have with God.

If their election is not irrevocable then neither is your own. Your own theology falls apart.

the covenants made with the Israel of old were conditional on their obedience whereas the New Covenant in which all of the previous covenants were pointing to were conditional of the person and obedience of Christ.

The promise made to physical Israel
Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Fulfilled in spiritual Israel made up of all nations
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Heb 10:15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

 

[Evmur]

the covenants made with the Israel of old were conditional on their obedience whereas the New Covenant in which all of the previous covenants were pointing to were conditional of the person and obedience of Christ.

The promise made to physical Israel
Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Fulfilled in spiritual Israel made up of all nations
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Heb 10:15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

you can't get out of this, will you acknowledge God's word or your own idol? The covenant God made with Abraham was conditional upon grace only, the dispensation of the law was temporary and whether they were blest or cursed was conditional
God's new covenant is with the house of Israel, not the seed of Israel ... we Gentiles have been graciously invited to partake of it and become co-heritors, fellow citizens.

...we are not invited to behave like cuckoos and push the natural chicks out of the nest.

This prideful attitude Paul warns against.

 

[Evmur]

your false dispensational Zionist Christian eschatology is resulting in the current chaos throughout the world which is leading to WW3 and people like yourself foolishly wish to see this world blown up in order to somehow think you can quicken the coming of Christ and be removed from any suffering through an unbiblical rapture.

You have been deceived by Darby and Schofield into thinking the current nation of Israel is fulfilling prophecy when in fact it is a counterfeit of Satan to deceive those who do not love the truth.

The proof of your false eschatology is the perverted Gospel people like yourself proclaim which in itself is the greatest judgement God can place upon anyone.

I have now warned you many times that the true Jew according to Scripture is not he who is born of the flesh but he who is born again in Christ's New Covenant. God saves by grace and not by race. He has one wife and not two!

The bride has 10 attendants, five of whom are wise. The bride is not her attendants.

Chaos is exactly what Jesus and all the prophets foretold, Jerusalem will be a rock of contention under which the nations will reel and stagger.

You betcha there is ww3 acoming. It's all in the prophets. Everything that God has ever said about Israel has always come to pass.

 

[Evmur]

the sheep are those Christ laid down His life for from among the whole world.

Joh 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Not all are sheep!

Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

you can cut that trollop all you like my faith has stood for more than 45 years through many trials and tribulations. I stand by God's grace only.

Did you read what Jesus did with His sheep in order to search for His lost one? He parked them in the wilderness.

 

[Evmur]

was it God's predestined plan for Christ to come into the world to save His people?

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

You foolishly still can not understand that the word us in Scripture is written about those who are granted grace to be saved and not those who are never granted grace and die in their sin.

Gal 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

Your hypo-grace hypothetical universalism is unbiblical and robs God of His glory.

View attachment 264624

I am not hyper grace, nor hyper dispensationalism, nor am I one who believes in universal salvation.

YOU are the only hyper here, hyper Calvin, Strict and Particular.

Do not I pray you become a hyper viper.