Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
I have, and I guess you just don't understand it. If God makes someone spiritually alive from being spiritual dead, then there is not one iota of credit due to person being made alive - they are just the recipient - they've done nothing for it. It's actually very simple. God alone should be the one to get the credit.
The question was not about God. Is God a woman?

PaulThomson said:
Why does this follow? If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,605
113
62
What's with the obsessive compartmentalisation of reality. Life is a confluence of processes. A man sinking down into murky depths who starts to hate where he is heading and begins to look up, away from the dark depths toward the light, and starts to push away from the deep, is beginning to be saved, even though he will not be saved until he reaches the surface. Seeking out the words of Christ, or taking heed to the words of Christ that are brought to us and considering them, does not completely save, but it is a step in the process of being saved. No one is claiming that a person can save themselves on their own without Christ doing the majority of the work. But it is foolish to claim that someone recognising that some things they did contributed to that process of salvation is somehow robbing God of glory for His role in that salvation.
Sure, all that is true, but...for what you are saying, God must already be at work. It's not that man can't do these things, but simply won't. And that's because he is slave to his nature. Just as a monkey is restricted by its nature, so too is fallen man. You can read about it in Romans 3 among other places. Left alone, he will not seek after God, among a host of other things.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,672
570
113
The question was not about God. Is God a woman?

PaulThomson said:
Why does this follow? If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.
You are speaking about being saved, and using your grabbing the rope as an analogy to that, weren't you? Or were you just making
a general statement about women as rescuers?

You can't contribute to being rescued because you're dead. I tried to equate the physical to the spiritual, with God being the rescuer instead of the woman. In both cases the person being rescued was dead.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,605
113
62
Where do you get, "The commandments are applicable to nonbelievers from -
PaulThomson said:
"And the reason we should be labouring for the word of God, is so that we may believe in the one whom God sent. We can't believe without first hearing and listening to what we should believe" ?
I was replying to the post that you responded to. You were adding to it so I thought you agreed with it. Does God not require all men to believe? Isn't what you suggest leading to this place?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,429
263
83
Yes, I do. The regenerate has an old man a.k.a. a natural (psuchikos/soulish) man, his native mind-plus-flesh, which is led by his flesh; and he must keep on crucifying that flesh and that old man by relying on the Spirit residing in his renewed spirit: walking by faith and not by sight. (Eph. 4:22 That you put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts"; Col. 3:9 Lie not to one another, seeing you have put off the old man with his deeds.") And the regenerate has a new inner man, a new invisible mind-plus-spirit, (a perfectly-renewed, perfectly-clean spirit, but an only partially renewed mind), which inner man is led by the Holy Spirit within him. (Eph. 4:23 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.") The new man must keep on putting off the old man so that the life of Christ is manifest through him. The more the new man allows the new spirit to renew the thinking of his mind with the revelation truth of the Holy Spirit, the more he is able to bring his flesh under submission to the new man ("but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,,,"

The unregenerate has an old man, a.k.a. a natural/psuchikos/soulish man, his native mind-plus-flesh, who is led by flesh, who relies on instinct; and the unregenerate man is prone to living according to that natural man, relying on instinct residing in his flesh, walking by sight, not by faith. But the unregenerate also has an old, unrenewed partially-damaged spirit, which may still hear from the Holy Spirit, who is with Him ( Acts 10:22 "And they said, 'Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that fears God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for you into his house, and hear words from you.' "). It is possible for the unregenerate to hear from the Holy Spirit and to allow the Holy Spirit to influence his thinking, decisions and beliefs, but he tends to rely more often on his instincts and his learned customs and beliefs.

"Natural" just means that which one is born with. (1 Cor. 15:44 "It is sown a natural/psuchikos body...") A self-preservation focussed body-mind-spirit. "New" means that which supersedes the old and replaces the old in part or wholly. Unregenerate means "not born again", "without a renewed re-created, undefiled spirit". Both the regenerate and the unregenerate have a natural man component to their personalities, and are capable of allowing the flesh, instincts, customs and traditions to dominate their decisions and behaviour. Only the regenerate has a renewed perfect spirit able continuously to channel the Holy Spirit's influence and power into his mind and flesh to give him a more consistently Christ-like lifestyle. (Gal. 5:16 "This I say then, Walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh.")

1Cor. 2:14 But the natural (psuchikos) man receives not the things of the Spirit of God (from context this means the deep things of the spirit 1 Cor. 2:6-13): for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Cornelius did not hear from the Holy Spirit. God literally sent an ANGEL to him in a vision so that he could summon Peter (Act 10:3-6). Cornelius was very likely a regenerated man whom God was getting ready to bring to "full term", i..e his spiritual birth! And that is exactly after Peter preached the gospel to him. Cornelius was then brought forth by the power of the Spirit and the Word.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,429
263
83
Jesus didn’t die to save a few. He died to save all. Christ dying for the ungodly is a proof of Love immeasurable. Jesus died for those who bitterly hate Him.
That’s Love!
Romans 5:8
You're right. Jesus didn't die to save a "few". But neither did he die for all. He died for MANY.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,429
263
83
PaulThomson said:
Why does this follow? If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.


You didn't answer the question... again.

Is the woman my saviour from drowning, despite my grabbing the rope to be saved? You claimed that if you do anything towards your own rescue, then the rescuer is no longer your saviour. Are you willing to admit that you were wrong. on that point?

Let's imagine I was dead and someone pulled me from the water without any cooperation from me, but while I was coming back to consciousness after CPR and mouth to mouth, I hallucinated that I had grabbed a rope thrown to me in order to be saved, and I was convinced that my hallucination was real. Would I not be truly rescued because I believed I had done somethinga as minor as grabbing a rope tossed to me? Would the rescuer be insulted that I thought I had contributed in some small way to my own rescue? What kind of person would my rescuer be to be so offended that I did not give them every gram of credit for my rescue, and so threw me into a furnace in their rage?
Your analogy is lame is because God rescues dead people by resurrecting them, which is one way eternal life is expressed. Or the other way is by the new birth which is expressive of the process of birth . No one has anything to do with the new spiritual birth anymore than you had anything to do with your natural birth.

Also, you conveniently overlook the truth that God rescues the HELPLESS -- people without power -- like the ancient Hebrews in Egypt. Totally powerless to help themselves.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
Your analogy is lame is because God rescues dead people by resurrecting them, which is one way eternal life is expressed. Or the other way is by the new birth which is expressive of the process of birth . No one has anything to do with the new spiritual birth anymore than you had anything to do with your natural birth.

Also, you conveniently overlook the truth that God rescues the HELPLESS -- people without power -- like the ancient Hebrews in Egypt. Totally powerless to help themselves.
You didn't answer the question ... again. It's not an analogy. It's a question.

Is the woman my saviour from drowning, despite my grabbing the rope to be saved?

Really, Rufus. Are you still looking for someone to fight?

You obviously don't even know how to interpret simple English written originally in English,. And you are trying to present yourself in this forum as someone skilled in interpreting biblical text translated into English from original Koine Greek, a language you seem to know nothing about; and interpreting it so well that people should subscribe to whatever theological concoctions you compose from your highly questionable interpretations.

Can you understand this question and formulate a coherent relevant answer in English ?

If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope, which I grab, and she pulls me ashore, is the woman my saviour from drowning, despite my grabbing the rope to be saved?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
PaulThomson said:
Why does this follow? If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.

You are speaking about being saved, and using your grabbing the rope as an analogy to that, weren't you? Or were you just making
a general statement about women as rescuers?

You can't contribute to being rescued because you're dead. I tried to equate the physical to the spiritual, with God being the rescuer instead of the woman. In both cases the person being rescued was dead.
I'm speaking English and the question is very simple. But you cannot read it without inserting implied TULIP concepts into my question, as you do when you read biblical text. Just read the question without adding foreign concepts not in the question. It's not hard.

If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,672
570
113
PaulThomson said:
Why does this follow? If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.



I'm speaking English and the question is very simple. But you cannot read it without inserting implied TULIP concepts into my question, as you do when you read biblical text. Just read the question without adding foreign concepts not in the question. It's not hard.

If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.
How can you grab if you're dead
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
How can you grab if you're dead
Amazing! Does my question include that I am dead? It says "I grab the rope". How could I do that if I am dead? I said not to insert foreign concepts into the text of the question. Can you understand what that means? Can you not help yourself?
PaulThomson said:
If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,672
570
113
Amazing! Does my question include that I am dead? It says "I grab the rope". How could I do that if I am dead? I said not to insert foreign concepts into the text of the question. Can you understand what that means? Can you not help yourself?
PaulThomson said:
If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.
But if you're dead then you couldn't, right? So, translating that to the spiritual, until being saved we ARE all spiritually dead and
therefore incapable of grabbing a spiritual rope. Your ultimate point is about becoming saved, isn't it?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
2,174
113
Just as a monkey is restricted by its nature, so too is fallen man
This comes too close to evolutionary theory. Monkeys weren't given the capacity to reason that c+a+t is symbolic of a felis catus, even though they may come to recognize the word "cat" by rote.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,605
113
62
This comes too close to evolutionary theory. Monkeys weren't given the capacity to reason that c+a+t is symbolic of a felis catus, even though they may come to recognize the word "cat" by rote.
I'm not teaching evolution. Everything is made after it's own kind. But let's say I get a pet monkey. I take it home and show it where the bread is kept, where the cheese and lunch meat is and show it where the bananas are kept. The monkey possesses the ability to make a sandwich. But he won't. He'll eat the bananas. Why? Because he's a monkey.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
But if you're dead then you couldn't, right? So, translating that to the spiritual, until being saved we ARE all spiritually dead and
therefore incapable of grabbing a spiritual rope. Your ultimate point is about becoming saved, isn't it?
I am not dead in the question I posed? This is surreal. Why can't you just answer the question i posed? Why are you wasting everybody's time with these endless deflections?

PaulThomson said:
If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
2,174
113
I'm not teaching evolution. Everything is made after it's own kind. But let's say I get a pet monkey. I take it home and show it where the bread is kept, where the cheese and lunch meat is and show it where the bananas are kept. The monkey possesses the ability to make a sandwich. But he won't. He'll eat the bananas. Why? Because he's a monkey.
My point is that comparing man to monkeys or any other animal leaves ignores the inherent distinction between them. Although you might be comfortable in applying that equation, it seems to me that it begrudges man any form of dignity whatsoever. Sure, Jacob refers to himself as a worm, but that is in comparison to God, whom he also wrestled to the point of a procuring a dislocated hip as much as the blessing he held on for.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,672
570
113
Amazing! Does my question include that I am dead? It says "I grab the rope". How could I do that if I am dead? I said not to insert foreign concepts into the text of the question. Can you understand what that means? Can you not help yourself?
PaulThomson said:
If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.
So, now since we have moved on to the spiritual from the physical (per my prior post), let me show you the verse that confirms we were spiritually dead before being saved and made spiritually alive by God - that it is biblical and not based upon TULIP is demonstrated by the verse. Look at word 8 (dead). It informs that we were spiritually dead, before being made alive (quickened) word 5. Notice words 2 - 5. They also confirm we were spiritually dead by telling us that God had to make us spiritually alive (quickened us) from that death. To be quickened (made alive) we first had to be dead. So, in the spiritual you were dead, and being dead, unable to assist in saving yourself. Therefore, you (and we all) deserve no credit whatsoever for simply being the beneficiaries of God's salvation process.

I hope this helps I'm running out of ways to explain it.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And (1) you (2) [hath (3) he(4) quickened (5), who(6) were(7) dead (8)in trespasses and sins;
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,605
113
62
My point is that comparing man to monkeys or any other animal leaves ignores the inherent distinction between them. Although you might be comfortable in applying that equation, it seems to me that it begrudges man any form of dignity whatsoever. Sure, Jacob refers to himself as a worm, but that is in comparison to God, whom he also wrestled to the point of a procuring a dislocated hip as much as the blessing he held on for.
God made Nebuchadnezzar as a beast of the field, he compares man to worms and beasts. Is He ignoring the inherent differences or making a point?
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,672
570
113
I am not dead in the question I posed? This is surreal. Why can't you just answer the question i posed? Why are you wasting everybody's time with these endless deflections?

PaulThomson said:
If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.
Your example does not reflect the spiritual reality as described by the Bible. And with that, I'm done.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
2,174
113
God made Nebuchadnezzar as a beast of the field, he compares man to worms and beasts. Is He ignoring the inherent differences or making a point?
The point often missed is God's expectation that man rise above in his potential as man rather than fall below it into the category of a common beast. And His grace ensures the possibility of forgiveness, when man inevitably does fall, to rise back up in dignity.