Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Cameron143]

PaulThomson said:
Why is drug rape not an appropriate characterisation of the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace? In drug rape the rapist, without the victim's prior consent, injects a [foreign] chemical that makes the victim, [who would otherwise reject him], want to be intimate with them; and in calvinist irresistible grace, God, without the person's prior consent, injects [foreign] calvinist faith[/heart/spirit] into a person, that makes the person, [who would otherwise reject Him], want to be intimate with God.



No. I did not have my own will before He created me.
No, I did not have parents before I had them.
No, setting boundaries does not replace my own will with a foreign will. I can still choose to want or not want the boundaries.
No. Paul was left with his ability to decide whether he wanted or did not want to go where God sent him.

But when the Calvinist and Calvinique apologist ascribes to God an act of taking away my own will that hates Him and unilaterally replacing it with a will to love Him by injecting Calvinist faith/new heart/ new spirit into someone, that is the Calvinist or Calvinique apologist ascribing faith rape/heart rape to God.

Thanks for the discussion. Blessings.

 

[rogerg]

NO, Roger made it seem like he woke up one day and was saved. And I was jabbing at him like what are you trying to say here that God forced you to be saved even against your will [which is a definition of the word that I said].

That is exactly what I believe - that God does it all - which makes Jesus the Saviour, not me, and how it occurs to all of His elect.
Jesus did everything necessary for that to happen to me. I contributed nothing whatsoever, but to be its beneficiary.

 

[PaulThomson]

He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Obviously there are those who have ears that do not hear. Since nearly all possess hearing physically, there is a spiritual hearing being spoken of. Clearly not everyone has it.

Why does "nearly all possess hearing physically" imply that there must be a spiritual hearing being spoken of? And not everyone has it.

"Everyone who has boarding tickets to board flight NZ 3631, let them board now at gate 7'" Obviously, there are those who have boarding passes for flight NZ 3631 who do not board. Since nearly all people in the Gate 7 waiting area have boarding passes to flight NZ 3631, the announcer must be speaking of spiritual boarding passes.

No. she's talking about physical boarding passes, saying "If you have them, use them now." There are no spiritual boarding passes.

.

 

[Rufus]

My ilk can be persuaded by the power of the message of the Gospel and we accepted His gift of salvation, we did not earn it, we were not selected, we trusted God for it.

Sam: How did you come to be a Christian?

JoAnne: I was persuaded by the message, the truth in the Gospel message.

Sam: Same here, do you feel you had an advantage or help to believe.

JoAnne: No the message was powerful, it was God's appeal to me to trust in and believe His promise.

Sam: Amen sister, “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” -Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬

And you know what JoAnne no one can boast because the message of the Gospel is the same now and forever and God holds us responsible for how we respond to HIS message.
He is not the God of false hope giving to some what He denies others.

But that's only a HALF-TRUTH, which actually makes it a falsehood!. It takes more than the Gospel to be "persuaded". God's people are brought forth by the Spirit and the Word -- and I would even dare to be so bold to declare it's in this precise order.

And You still need to explain how man with his evil nature can make good choices. You do understand what "evil" is, right? (Rhetorical question as you probably don't.) Evil is the absence of Good, just like darkness is the absence of light. So...let me rephrase my question: How can the God-hating, NON-good make good, spiritual choices, such as to repent and believe the gospel? What you just stated above implies that you guys have the power to change your essence (nature) -- which again, not even God himself can change his own! But you "leopards" can certainly change your "spots" into stripes, can't you?

And this gal JoAnne appears to be spiritually clueless. God's grace is his to give, according to the counsel of his own perfect will. He is free to sovereignly give to people what they don't deserve. And the ones to which he doesn't bestow his grace are not denied anything. They get what they deserve: JUSTICE! How can a just God not be fair in giving people what they rightly deserve?

You NR folks have a very perverted, lopsided view of God's justice -- and his love for that matter.

 

[Rufus]

You do realize the verse literally begins with to them that ARE SNCTIFIED in Christ.
Sanctified means they are already Saved. So Paul is talking to SAVED people, not unsaved people.


You are correct and why I only said this is what the Bible said. Why would I give a personal viewpoint when the Bible is the answer? The Bible said the Holy Spirit comes while they are hearing. It never shows before hearing. So why would I believe in something other than what the Bible claims?

So...by the same token, the passage doesn't say the Spirit came AFTER they heard, does it? How 'bout this 'novel" idea" They believed at the point of their new birth?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Ugh. Hey, you know what? I know of other people who say they went to bed as unbelievers
and awoke as believers. Why would you just jump to rape from that little info when you
seem to be overlooking the fact that there could be reams of backstory? Any who,
I need to get about my day here for now... I hope you have a good one.

Because we have the same emotions as God, we are made in His Image and Likeness. I've never had a successful relationship with someone who was forced to be my friend. God wants true worship. People who want God offer up the greatest praise to God over someone who was forced to do it. Look at the kids raised in Church, They are the ones closing the bars every night. Forcing people get you nowhere but resentment and rebellion.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

for the Unjust/Nonelect/Unsaved whose names are not written in The Book of Life?

Chuckle!!! He died for the Unjust/Nonelect/Unsaved whose names were not written in The Book of Life - YET?

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm neither of the above, and those who can't argue ideas always label and characterize the beliefs of others falsely. It's bearing false witness and is sinful.
Just as there are some things a person can appropriate for themselves, there are other things which one cannot. Simply because one thing is possible doesn't make all things possible. What kind of fallacy were you employing?

What does Calvinique mean? How do you now you aren't Calvinique in your views on irresistible grace.

 

[Rufus]

Why does "nearly all possess hearing physically" imply that there must be a spiritual hearing being spoken of? And not everyone has it.

"Everyone who has boarding tickets to board flight NZ 3631, let them board now at gate 7'" Obviously, there are those who have boarding passes for flight NZ 3631 who do not board. Since nearly all people in the Gate 7 waiting area have boarding passes to flight NZ 3631, the announcer must be speaking of spiritual boarding passes.

No. she's talking about physical boarding passes, saying "If you have them, use them now." There are no spiritual boarding passes.

.

But the physically dead cannot hear, can they? Oh wait...there were people who Jesus resurrected? So...maybe the physically dead can hear just the way they did when they were alive?

 

[Mem]

Aren't you the quintessential surgeon on this thread -- perhaps even the entire forum? But for your info, a particular spiritual truth is often expressed in different ways in scripture. This is why Spiritual Life, as one example, is expressed as "birth" to emphasize that life is a gradual process, and why it is expressed as "resurrection" that emphasizes the one-time miraculous act of God.

Shucks, you give me so much credit. So, what? What are you attempting to setting me straight on again? That I only expressed it one way and not all the possible ways? But I'm only feigning ignorance here of your objection to my qualification to practice surgery. It doesn't mean I don't know what's involved. However, your position is that God's plan was to have you, and only you, circumcised (when that idea concerning Israel was left at the cross, there a new sign of the covenant between God and all men) which diverges from my position that God's plan is to have all man's (not excluding women) heart circumcised and so established the practice, being more than adequately qualified, and put out His "open" sign.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You aren't hearing what I've been saying. I agree those people WERE saved - I've said they were. But The point is
how did they come to believe. I said they were saved, and when saved were given the Holy Spirit, by which, they believed.
So, they were saved, given the Holy Spirit, heard, believed, not the reverse.

They are Paul's congregation so he preached and witnessed to them. They heard and believed.

The Holy Spirit indwells someone when they become saved and never leaves them- by which indwelling, they become born-again. So, the Holy Spirit is present within someone before, during, and remains after they hear.
But basically, I didn't follow your reply.
Anyway, unless you can provide the requested verses, I think we're done

Yes, when they "become" saved. But no one becomes saved until they hear the Gospel. You don't walk out of a bar and become saved. You hear the Gospel and become saved.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So...by the same token, the passage doesn't say the Spirit came AFTER they heard, does it? How 'bout this 'novel" idea" They believed at the point of their new birth?

It says while they heard the Holy Spirit fell upon them.

 

[Rufus]

Yes.

Good. Then spiritual life precedes birth.

 

[Rufus]

It says while they heard the Holy Spirit fell upon them.

And your point is???? Are you saying that they could have responded positively apart from the Holy Spirit falling upon them at the same time they were "hearing"?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That is exactly what I believe - that God does it all - which makes Jesus the Saviour, not me, and how it occurs to all of His elect.
Jesus did everything necessary for that to happen to me. I contributed nothing whatsoever, but to be its beneficiary.

How can me yielding to God, rather than rejecting God, not still be about God did everything in my own salvation?
In other words, God says in Spirit I want to be Lord over your life and give you salvation. And you just yield to God and He does everything. How is that me contributing anything? I'm just yielding instead of resisting.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So...by the same token, the passage doesn't say the Spirit came AFTER they heard, does it? How 'bout this 'novel" idea" They believed at the point of their new birth?

Sounds good to me

 

[Magenta]

Because we have the same emotions as God, we are made in His Image and Likeness. I've never had a successful relationship with someone who was forced to be my friend. God wants true worship. People who want God offer up the greatest praise to God over someone who was forced to do it. Look at the kids raised in Church, They are the ones closing the bars every night. Forcing people get you nowhere but resentment and rebellion.

That does not answer the question, really. How or where do you see any force applied in waking up as a believer?

 

[Rufus]

Because we have the same emotions as God, we are made in His Image and Likeness. I've never had a successful relationship with someone who was forced to be my friend. God wants true worship. People who want God offer up the greatest praise to God over someone who was forced to do it. Look at the kids raised in Church, They are the ones closing the bars every night. Forcing people get you nowhere but resentment and rebellion.

But it's God who makes relationships with helpless people. How can you characterize God as a forceful tyrant when he actually rescues helpless, powerless people? After all...that's exactly what he did in the Exodus.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And your point is???? Are you saying that they could have responded positively apart from the Holy Spirit falling upon them at the same time they were "hearing"?

Just pointing out how the Bible explains it happened. As they heard the Holy Spirit fell upon them.

 

[rogerg]

Yes, when they "become" saved. But no one becomes saved until they hear the Gospel. You don't walk out of a bar and become saved. You hear the Gospel and become saved.

They became saved, and from/by that, they believed - it came as a result, not as a cause They could not truly hear (have spiritual discernment of) the gospel until they were saved because they didn't have the Holy Spirit until they were saved/born again, and without the Holy Spirit, to hear spiritually is impossible.

[1Co 2:12 KJV] 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.