There will be no Rapture!!!

[TheDivineWatermark]

The media will control what is reported because the AC will control it. Do you think the AC would show news clips of 2 single people bringing the Wrath of God upon all sinners? Because when they die the Bible says all the people on Earth will celebrate.

Personally, to me, this proves the 2 Witnesses are all over world as in groups because Satan is not going to show himself getting beat up. But when the Witnesses die for 3 days the Whole World is rejoicing. That has to be groups of people representing the 2 Witnesses.

I "get" your reasoning.

I just don't "get" why you are saying, that these "dead in Christ" (you are calling them) will be resurrected and then are (according to you) "raptured" TO HEAVEN (per v.12, according to your reading of the verse)... but out of the other side of your mouth are saying that at our Rapture-event, it is NOT "to Heaven" (as its destination-location) despite how you are interpreting Rev11:12.

You sound a little confused, sorry to say. = )

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

How can the context of Rev11 be about our Rapture? Because nothing in the text corresponds with it.

For example, I think you're saying that one of the two witnesses is the Gentile believers.
This means that the entirety of one witness is killed... and then are resurrected... and then (according to you) are "G725'd" (caught up--though I disagree).

But the text in 1Th4:17 says, "caught up TOGETHER WITH them" (meaning, both those who'd previously DIED [i.e. the 2W / including the Gentile believers, according to your view] AND the still-alive ones... "caught up TOGETHER").

Your view seems to be that they (both aspects) are NOT "caught up TOGETHER" but only these who'd DIED (one of the two "witnesses" groups, according to your view). And they "ascend" PRIOR TO the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe"... ;

I think you are saying that the "still-alive ones" (who are NOT "killed" in this context) remain [further] unto the END of the Trib... but this goes against the wording of 1Th4, which tells us both the dead in Christ (bodily-resurrected) and the we which are ALIVE (both aspects of the One Body) will be "caught up TOGETHER" (the still-alive ones will be "caught-up TOGETHER WITH [together/at the same time with] them") contrary to your view.

If the 2 Witnesses are the Church or Congregation of Believers like Lampstand and Olive Tree represents, we see all them in Heaven here:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a vast multitude that no one could count—from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues—was standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hand

Notice what this verse specifically claims:
14 Then he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation"

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

It doesn't have to say such a thing when we can read and understand that very thing being said in OTHER ways than to directly and succinctly spelled out in detail.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The cheap and cheesy escape from the obvious meaning to which this leads is some claim that the wrath occurs later in the tribulation. That doesn't fit with chapter 6 of Revelation, so let's see if you have something novel to try and wiggle out of this.

Oh, let me guess. You're going to claim that the day of the Lord is just one day, the day of Yahshuah's return. Well, all those verses I quoted above puts that to sleep, so the "context" dodge won't work here either.

So, what's it going to be?

MM

You mean you can read INTO what you wish to.

Your verse, God hath not appointed us to WRATH.

Look at verse 10 it answers your verse 9.
10 He died for us so that, whether we may be awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.


The WRATH in verse 9 is about Eternal Damnation.

Of course, you would turn something so obvious into part of your false doctrine.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I "get" your reasoning.

I just don't "get" why you are saying, that these "dead in Christ" (you are calling them) will be resurrected and then are (according to you) "raptured" TO HEAVEN (per v.12, according to your reading of the verse)... but out of the other side of your mouth are saying that at our Rapture-event, it is NOT "to Heaven" (as its destination-location) despite how you are interpreting Rev11:12.

You sound a little confused, sorry to say. = )

The Dead in Christ are Dead until God calls them. They ain't going nowhere but remaining in the Grave until they are called.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If the 2 Witnesses are the Church or Congregation of Believers like Lampstand and Olive Tree represents, we see all them in Heaven here:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a vast multitude that no one could count—from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues—was standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hand

Notice what this verse specifically claims:
14 Then he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation"

I see vv.16-17 speaking to the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom location (as their "destination-location"),

Rev 7:15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


... just like Isaiah 49:10 (and context) speaks to:

Isa 49:10
They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
Isa 49:11
And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
Isa 49:12
Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
Isa 49:13
Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Dead in Christ are Dead until God calls them. They ain't going nowhere but remaining in the Grave until they are called.

For clarification, aren't you saying that the "2W" (once they are killed) are part of "the dead in Christ" (till they are resurrected, and then ASCEND up to Heaven)... or are you not saying they are a part of "the DEAD in Christ"?




[note: I am not saying such. I thought YOU were. No?]

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I see vv.16-17 speaking to the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom location (as their "destination-location"),

Rev 7:15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


... just like Isaiah 49:10 (and context) speaks to:

Isa 49:10
They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
Isa 49:11
And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
Isa 49:12
Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
Isa 49:13
Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

10 And they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “O Sovereign Master, holy and true, how long before You judge those who dwell on the earth and avenge our blood?”

11 Then a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants was complete—their brothers and sisters who were to be killed as they had been.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

For clarification, aren't you saying that the "2W" (once they are killed) are part of "the dead in Christ" (till they are resurrected, and then ASCEND up to Heaven)... or are you not saying they are a part of "the DEAD in Christ"?




[note: I am not saying such. I thought YOU were. No?]

They are not buried, just lay in the street for 3 days. Sleeping [Biblical term].

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

10 And they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “O Sovereign Master, holy and true, how long before You judge those who dwell on the earth and avenge our blood?”

11 Then a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants was complete—their brothers and sisters who were to be killed as they had been.

So... the martyrs killed during the FIRST HALF of the Trib (5th Seal martyrs ^ ) are distinct from those "coming out of the GREAT tribulation" (SECOND half of the Trib; Rev7:9,14).







[Neither of these sets being "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

They are not buried, just lay in the street for 3 days. Sleeping [Biblical term].

Okay, so what I think you are NOW saying is,

these (the "2W") are not part of "the DEAD in Christ" because to be a part of "the DEAD in Christ" requires that they be BURIED (and the "2W" will NOT be).

Am I reading you right, yet?


So, IOW you do NOT believe the "2W" will be "raptured" (like you'd earlier said, I thought)?? Per Rev11:12.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Okay, so what I think you are NOW saying is,

these (the "2W") are not part of "the DEAD in Christ" because to be a part of "the DEAD in Christ" requires that they be BURIED (and the "2W" will NOT be).

Am I reading you right, yet?


So, IOW you do NOT believe the "2W" will be "raptured" (like you'd earlier said, I thought)?? Per Rev11:12.

Yes, they are not buried. Their bodies will resurrect and be changed and go directly to Heaven.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, they are not buried. Their bodies will resurrect and be changed and go directly to Heaven.

You seem to be dancing around my question.



Are the "2W" (once they are "killed") A PART OF "the DEAD in Christ" or are they NOT (according to your view)?

 

[Genez]

Look at the post you quoted and then make the claim you did. Comprehension seems to be a struggle for you at times.

The verses I quoted? ... no matter how I did not understand anything else?

Still says that the Great Unique Tribulation will be of its own time, and not to be confused with the typical tribulations we face in the world for thousands of years.... like you have been trying to say is the tribulation.



Everyday tribulation =

These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. ​

In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have ​

overcome the world.” John 16:33​

John 16:33 is not speaking of the great Tribulation.

It speaks of our everyday life while we are living in the liberal's world.

The Great (Unique) Tribulation? =

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the ​

beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. Matthew 24:21​

After reading those passages?
Comprehension seems to be a struggle for you at times?

Just maybe it is....

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You seem to be dancing around my question.



Are the "2W" (once they are "killed") A PART OF "the DEAD in Christ" or are they NOT (according to your view)?

12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.

I just noticed they actually fulfill pre-wrath.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The verses I quoted? ... no matter how I did not understand anything else?

Still says that the Great Unique Tribulation will be of its own time, and not to be confused with the typical tribulations we face in the world for thousands of years.... like you have been trying to say is the tribulation.



Everyday tribulation =

These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. ​

In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have ​

overcome the world.” John 16:33​

John 16:33 is not speaking of the great Tribulation.

It speaks of our everyday life while we are living in the liberal's world.

The Great (Unique) Tribulation? =

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the ​

beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. Matthew 24:21​

After reading those passages?
Comprehension seems to be a struggle for you at times?

Just maybe it is....

I didn't say anything about a verse you quoted anywhere.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.

I just noticed they actually fulfill pre-wrath.

Are you saying that these "2W" (which you are saying represent groups of people [not 2 individual persons]), once they are KILLED, are a PART of what Scripture calls: "the DEAD in Christ / them which are asleep / them which sleep in/through Jesus" (same)?





"[15b] ...shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" [referred to in v.14 also]



^ Are the "2W" (groups, you say) included as part of "the dead in Christ / them which are asleep / them... which sleep in/through Jesus," or not?

 

[ZNP]

These verses indicate final tribulation. But the rapture shows up in verses 30-31 of this prophecy.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 And unless those days were cut short, no one would be delivered. But for the sake of the chosen, those days will be cut short.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory.
31 He will send out His angels with a great shofar, and they will gather together His chosen from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

The answer is no. The martyred saints throughout the two thousand years of church history went through tribulation. The dead in Christ rise first, they went through tribulation. The fact that there is great tribulation during the seven year period does not somehow mean you have to go through that to be raptured.

Pretending that believers do not go through tribulation or cannot go through it until these seven years is not Biblical and is completely absurd on so many levels.

Also, the law of the Bible is that the first fruits must be offered to God before you can harvest the general harvest. So the first fruits would be taken prior to the seven year period and then the general harvest can take place during the seven year period. Bible verses proving that Christians are alive during the seven year period do not mean that no one is raptured prior to the seven year period. That is a simplistic view of the Bible that ignores way too many verses. There are subtle differences like verses that talk about the first fruits being taken to the father's house compared with other verses talking about the harvest being taken to the barn. The barn and the house are two separate places, two separate events. Harvesting a crop takes weeks, it isn't all done in "the twinkling of an eye". Some crops are ripe first, most are ripe later, and a few are not ripe until the very end of the season.

The difference between the tribulation in the church age and. in the last seven years is this. Prior to the last seven years you have to choose to go through tribulation. You have to choose to take up your cross and follow the Lord. During the tribulation you are forced to make a choice, it is no longer up to you. Either you take the mark of the beast and forfeit your salvation or you get decapitated.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Are you saying that these "2W" (which you are saying represent groups of people [not 2 individual persons]), once they are KILLED, are a PART of what Scripture calls: "the DEAD in Christ / them which are asleep / them which sleep in/through Jesus" (same)?





"[15b] ...shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" [referred to in v.14 also]



^ Are the "2W" (groups, you say) included as part of "the dead in Christ / them which are asleep / them... which sleep in/through Jesus," or not?

I am saying they represent Olive Trees and Lampstands which in Hebrew means Congregation of Believers. And the fact the whole world knows of them, during the Reign of Satan, who would in no way promote them reveals they represent Olive Trees and Lampstands. And they will come out of the Tribulation. And they will ask God to avenge their Blood. They Resurrect and then caught up in the clouds. They are Pre-Wrath.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The answer is no. The martyred saints throughout the two thousand years of church history went through tribulation. The dead in Christ rise first, they went through tribulation. The fact that there is great tribulation during the seven year period does not somehow mean you have to go through that to be raptured.

Pretending that believers do not go through tribulation or cannot go through it until these seven years is not Biblical and is completely absurd on so many levels.

Also, the law of the Bible is that the first fruits must be offered to God before you can harvest the general harvest. So the first fruits would be taken prior to the seven year period and then the general harvest can take place during the seven year period. Bible verses proving that Christians are alive during the seven year period do not mean that no one is raptured prior to the seven year period. That is a simplistic view of the Bible that ignores way too many verses. There are subtle differences like verses that talk about the first fruits being taken to the father's house compared with other verses talking about the harvest being taken to the barn. The barn and the house are two separate places, two separate events. Harvesting a crop takes weeks, it isn't all done in "the twinkling of an eye". Some crops are ripe first, most are ripe later, and a few are not ripe until the very end of the season.

The difference between the tribulation in the church age and. in the last seven years is this. Prior to the last seven years you have to choose to go through tribulation. You have to choose to take up your cross and follow the Lord. During the tribulation you are forced to make a choice, it is no longer up to you. Either you take the mark of the beast and forfeit your salvation or you get decapitated.

Wait, are you Preterist?

 

[Genez]

I didn't say anything about a verse you quoted anywhere.

Maybe that's the problem you're having....
Can't concentrate on what is essential.

Don't want to be putting you down like this.
But, you seem to either blank out on vital points?
Or, you are one of those rare individuals who takes strange pleasure in playing the Devil's advocate.

.........