Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
Do you people get it? If Michael refused to speak harshly against the Devil, who are you . . . mere humans . . . to speak harshly against each other?

So I ask myself, why would I stay here and listen to this hatred and utter crap? Do none of you realize that we are all like Job? We are not to be like Eliphaz, Bildad, or Zophar, yet here we are . . . perfectly displaying evil OPENLY . . . and blindly.

There is NO shame.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,044
8,376
113
The same way Michael, the Mightiest of Angels spoke to him/them.

Jude 1:8-11 NLT - "But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
Looks like you have failed to recognize what is going on here.

Michael knew full well of the other extremely powerful angels that were successfully deceived by Satan (the wisest and most powerful created being).....and DARED NOT to directly confront him. Because he himself may likewise be seduced by his subtlety and treacherous lies.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
Looks like you have failed
Oh, I know. According to everyone, everyone has failed. You all thrive on pointing out each others sour flavors, you miss their flavors of sweetness.

Sour, bitter, angry people.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,044
8,376
113
Oh...so the passages above apply to the inner circle of the family of God and how brothers and sisters in Christ are supposed to speak to each other, how we SHOULD address one another? No love required? No respect? And when we don't love each other in the Lord, we're still loving Christ, I suppose?
Depends. Closet heretics spinning their webs are not part of the Body don't you know.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Legalistic? :ROFL::ROFL:

Maybe Jesus was being legalistic when he asked that tough rhetorical question to religious folks. And must I remind you that the world is filled with far more religious folks than strictly secular ones? And this latter group ain't a bunch of sweethearts either. But "regular ole sinners" -- regular ole Natural Man -- well, these types are the real salt of the earth, the real deal GOOD ole boys. aren't they?
The most dangerous people in the world are those claiming to be saved.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,044
8,376
113
Do you people get it? If Michael refused to speak harshly against the Devil, who are you . . . mere humans . . . to speak harshly against each other?

So I ask myself, why would I stay here and listen to this hatred and utter crap? Do none of you realize that we are all like Job? We are not to be like Eliphaz, Bildad, or Zophar, yet here we are . . . perfectly displaying evil OPENLY . . . and blindly.

There is NO shame.
Jude is speaking to the unsaved. Not the saved. Obviously. And he, a saved person, is indeed speaking harshly of them.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,044
8,376
113
Only in your pipe dreams. And what part of "perhaps" don't you understand? "Would" expresses desire, choice and willingness. But how can desperately wicked hearts desire God? How can they willingly seek him? How can they make good choices? Have you never read:

Matt 12:34
34 You brood of vipers, how CAN you who ARE EVIL say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
NIV

The above question is a rhetorical one, by the way. But I'm sure you'll find a way around that.

Time and time and time again, I have asked you NR folks the same basic question just slightly differently. I have asked: How can anyone with an evil nature or evil heart make good choices? Since we're bad trees with roots deep in the soil of sinfulness since birth, how can we bear good fruit? How can we choose to become something entirely different from what we are? And the passage above is my justification for asking such things!

What Jesus is saying in the above is this: "How can you who are evil choose to say anything good!?

So, now...let's apply the moral/spiritual principle that Jesus taught -- and also taught in other places in scripture -- to Acts 17:27.

Again, the text reads in the NIV:

Acts 17:27
27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
NIV

But this is a poor rendering. Other translations such as the ASV, KJV, ESV, YLT, NASB, etc. -- all very literal translations read: "that they SHOULD seek God..."

And this rendering harmonizes quite nicely with the above passage in Matthew and a host of others that teach the total depravity of man. The term "should" fits so well because it speaks to man's moral/spiritual responsibility. All men SHOULD do many things when it comes to God: They SHOULD love him, trust him, obey him, worship him, fear him, glorify him, etc, etc. And men should also seek after him!

This translation is consistent with Jesus' teaching because even though all men should seek after God, we know they don't because of the overflow of evil in their hearts! Evil hearts cannot choose to do anything good towards God because men have no desire within such corrupt hearts to do good. The hearts of men are not partly good and partly evil. They are only evil! Period!

Also this rendering is consistent with what Paul taught elsewhere -- such as in Rom 3:11 -- "no one who seeks God". Therefore, Paul hasn't contradicted himself either.
Ahhhhh yes. The much misinterpreted Rom 3:11.

Will get to that later. And you are in for quite a shock.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
Matthew 22:37-39 NLT - "Jesus replied, "'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself."

Meaningless. Jesus's Holy Words are utterly meaningless (to this group).
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
By the way, Mr. Shiloh, I found an interesting post of yours re Act 17:27; for this isn't the first time you have appealed to this text to try to support the natural spiritual ability of man. I don't know what the exact number of your post was but the number of mine which was in response to it was 5461 which I wrote on 5/14. So, your actual number very likely slighlty precedes my reply. Here's what you wrote:

It was by design from Creation like Paul said.

26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

27 that they should seek God

So it has always been God that leads His Offspring to Him.
I don't know how this forum works. It says in your header "post:5301150", but I don't know what that means. But to the point of pointing to this old post of yours...

Notice above that you quote (AGAIN) part of the verse, omitting the phrase that begins with "if perhaps they might grope....". Twice you have omitted this phrase because you no doubt feel that it weakens your argument. But in addition to this, the part you did quote reads "that they SHOULD seek God". But now just a while ago, you quoted from another version that says, "that they would seek God".

Of course, in either case, your exegetical skills are sorely lacking because neither rendering even remotely hints at natural spiritual ability. You might wanna look for another "proof text".... but before posting it here, seek first the counsel of many messianic rabbis to make sure your exegesis is spot-on -- if you're interested in regaining some of your credibility back.

And how do you get from the passage that "it has always been God that leads his Offspring to Him"? I give you this, sir: You have mastered the art of Eisegesis! :coffee:
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
Jude is speaking to the unsaved. Not the saved. Obviously. And he, a saved person, is indeed speaking harshly of them.
Fine. If you spoke to me this way in your church, I'd turn around, never come back and begin to teach against your unloving church.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
Ahhhhh yes. The much misinterpreted Rom 3:11.

Will get to that later. And you are in for quite a shock.
Really? You really think you're the quintessential lightning rod, heh?
 

MerSee

Active member
Jan 13, 2024
796
119
43
Matthew 22:37-39 NLT - "Jesus replied, "'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself."

Meaningless. Jesus's Holy Words are utterly meaningless (to this group).
You are right, heretics hate correct/sound doctrine.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
The same way Michael, the Mightiest of Angels spoke to him/them.

Jude 1:8-11 NLT - "In the same way, these people--who claim authority from their dreams--live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at supernatural beings. But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.) But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction. What sorrow awaits them! For they follow in the footsteps of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they deceive people for money. And like Korah, they perish in their rebellion."

I give up on the hatred that thrives within this forum.
I wonder though, should we Rebuke someone online if that might lead to a perma ban?

The other issue is this is just a debate board. Meant to debate. I actually pray for everyone here. Before I go to bed I click [Christian Forums] and it shows me a list of people online or was online and I say a prayer for them every day/night pending where one is at in the world time zone wise. So even though I debate what I clearly see as purposeful mistranslation or outright lies in a manner as I would talking to someone trying to deceive me. I pray for them to be Blessed, have good health, be prosperous.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
I wonder though, should we Rebuke someone online if that might lead to a perma ban?

The other issue is this is just a debate board. Meant to debate. I actually pray for everyone here. Before I go to bed I click [Christian Forums] and it shows me a list of people online or was online and I say a prayer for them every day/night pending where one is at in the world time zone wise. So even though I debate what I clearly see as purposeful mistranslation or outright lies in a manner as I would talking to someone trying to deceive me. I pray for them to be Blessed, have good health, be prosperous.
I assure you of this: When you are gifted with the Terror of the Lord . . . your thinking will change. Take care . . . I cannot stomach this place anymore.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
No, Paul did not say "we CAN search and find." You're reading that into the text. And you did a nifty editing job on v.27, as well! The versed reads:

Acts 17:27
27 God did this so that men WOULD seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
NIV

There's a difference between "could" and "would", for your info.

FWIW, you're grasping at straws here by inserting a specific sense into "could" to go along with your "inability" presupposition.

The whole structure of this with the preceding verse is God doing something for a purpose: to make it possible for man to seek Him and possibly find Him. Both "could" and "would" have within their range the meaning of possibility. "Perhaps" is also translating this sense of possibility.

This looks to be depicting God as placing every nation of men into a time in history and within the place they live for a purpose, which is to seek Him and possibly find Him.

It's not a pretty picture of unregenerate man, but it is not a depiction of inability.


Says the same thing.
WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO IT!!
There's certainly nothing in that verse that says we don't have the ability to seek Him. He's arranged our time and place of existence to make it possible for us to seek Him.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
By the way, Mr. Shiloh, I found an interesting post of yours re Act 17:27; for this isn't the first time you have appealed to this text to try to support the natural spiritual ability of man. I don't know what the exact number of your post was but the number of mine which was in response to it was 5461 which I wrote on 5/14. So, your actual number very likely slighlty precedes my reply. Here's what you wrote:



I don't know how this forum works. It says in your header "post:5301150", but I don't know what that means. But to the point of pointing to this old post of yours...

Notice above that you quote (AGAIN) part of the verse, omitting the phrase that begins with "if perhaps they might grope....". Twice you have omitted this phrase because you no doubt feel that it weakens your argument. But in addition to this, the part you did quote reads "that they SHOULD seek God". But now just a while ago, you quoted from another version that says, "that they would seek God".

Of course, in either case, your exegetical skills are sorely lacking because neither rendering even remotely hints at natural spiritual ability. You might wanna look for another "proof text".... but before posting it here, seek first the counsel of many messianic rabbis to make sure your exegesis is spot-on -- if you're interested in regaining some of your credibility back.

And how do you get from the passage that "it has always been God that leads his Offspring to Him"? I give you this, sir: You have mastered the art of Eisegesis! :coffee:
No, I know anyone can research these verses. And the part not displayed has no bearing on the general message by Paul. The point I am showing ultimately is God thinks of all humans as His Offspring and gave a way to find him.

But for some reason, you want to try to cover up that portion.

Probably because it goes against your Doctrine :cool:
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,328
6,649
113
62
I assure you of this: When you are gifted with the Terror of the Lord . . . your thinking will change. Take care . . . I cannot stomach this place anymore.
Take what's good and don't engage with the rest. It's unrealistic to expect someone to act differently than what they are. It's OK to just pray for people without engaging. They could be spending time in worse places.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
I assure you of this: When you are gifted with the Terror of the Lord . . . your thinking will change. Take care . . . I cannot stomach this place anymore.
The Terror of the Lord will strike down those who misrepresent God's Word. So shouldn't they be warned before it happens? God is a God of second chances. A Debate Board could be the arena for second chances since no one gets together in person.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
You have a pretty low view of the Creator and Redeemer who Jesus claimed that nothing is impossible for Him to do!
You mean like the low view of a Creator making man with a will and an ability to choose and making that work with His decrees and sovereignty?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,343
29,591
113
We pray because it's commanded of us AND it's a means of Grace. You NR folks
just don't get it: God ordains the ends and well as the means to those ends.
Some people seem to think prayer is to bend God to their will. I believe prayer helps bend our will to His...