Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

I'm just pointing out a historical fact on one level. But in the use of the particular language, I'm pointing out that they weren't in an intimate experiential relationship with God as characterized by John 17:3.

Firstly, your assertion of historical fact is easily questioned from Scripture. Experientially you cannot know of what you assert.

Next, you do realize you keep adding words and changing concepts, don't you? Some call this moving the goal posts. It's hardly a case of the use of particular language.

You've changed from: (1) never being familiar with the One true God; (2) to never heard of God; (3) to God never personally visited everyone; (4) to "intimate experiential relationship with God as characterized by John 17:3" - a verse that speaks of eternal life.

So:

1. Refuted by Rom1
2. Refuted by Rom1
3. Rhetoric
4. Agree that natural man does not have an "intimate experiential relationship with God as characterized by John 17:3."
   1. Natural man does not know God - he does not have eternal life
   2. So God has made certain natural man has the experiential knowledge of God discussed in #1 & 2 just above, in order that natural man may be prepared to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
   3. And the interpretive thinking is that God knows who has not rejected experiential knowledge of God, and will get them the Gospel of His Son. If we don't think He did or does, then I personally wouldn't say He doesn't or that He in omniscience does not deal with everyone in perfect accordance with His perfect essence.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm going to save some space here since your practice is not to post and explain Scripture, Per the verses from Rom1 I posted:

• 1:18 is experiential revelation of God's wrath
• 1:19 men are to experientially know of 1:18 because God has made clearly known His existence to men
• 1:20 from God's creation and His "invisibles" - His eternal power and divinity - are clearly seen and are understood
  • This is again experiential
  • This is also mental reasoning - literally putting things together in the mind
• 1:21 they knew God but did not glorify Him nor were thankful;
  • This is now a combination of mentality and experiential
  • Now their mentality is degenerating
• 1:22 their experiential professing is wrong
• 1:23 their experiential actions are now idolatrous
• 1:24-25 is a combination of mentality and experiential

These verses alone provide information that the natural man knows God both rationally and experientially. To continue the theme:

• NKJ Rom1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
  • The Greek word here speaks of experiential knowledge. It is an emphasized concept of knowledge (just knowing something mentally). It speaks of practical knowledge - knowledge to be practiced.
  • BTW, human choice is clear here.

You're limiting what God has done in men per Rom1 to being natural and not being supernatural. But God making Himself, His eternal power, His Divinity clearly known in and to men is supernatural. And in this clarity in men God is clearly expecting men to act on this practical knowledge.

I understand what you're getting at re: the bestowal of His love, and there is clearly a special sense of this for His Children - those who love Him. But, by this focus, IMO you're negating His love as part of His perfect essence that works perfectly together with all of His attributes, and what He has done in love for all mankind.

If you've got any Scripture that you think makes your case, please post it. Love is a big topic. You should be able to present some Scripture to make your case. Maybe you can...

You ignore that all that natural men may know is of the existence of God. This is not experiential knowing which requires the Holy Spirit. The natural man does not have this.
There is a reality that attends salvation. If you have been saved, you know it. You have become a new creation. God has come to you personally and directly and you are not the same. The thought that you can know God without God being present is absurd. If you can't distinguish the difference between knowing that someone exists and interacting with someone and having experiential knowledge, I can't help you. But to ignore the difference is to equate eternal life with natural life.
I personally stopped conversations with you because of your subtle snipes in our discourse. I see this hasn't changed. Grace and peace.

 

[studier]

when reading about the apostolic church and how they lived c ommunally apart from the roman system at the time, soo much so that they were considered a “sect”

“But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.”
Acts 28:22

i wonder if the church of today aspired to the church of old, even against the beast system of today, in the unity of the body of christ we could flourish aside from the laws of man, consider the amish. i think the amish in their ways and customs mirror the church of the 1st century ad and yet in these forums we attack each other on the smallest points of doctrine😕

Some do think we should all wear the same clothes and ride horses. I wonder about all of what goes on among them. No matter our mode of transportation, we're all still in sin or in the process of increasingly overcoming it.

 

[BillyBob]

Is there anything more important that we understand than what we find in Ezekiel 36:25-27? And, Colossians 2:9-15? And, Deut 30:6?

Psalm 51:10-12 NLT - "Create in me a clean heart, O God. Renew a loyal spirit within me. Do not banish me from your presence, and don't take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and make me willing to obey you."

We sing the above verses (well, in church's that haven't rejected classic hymns that contain actual teachings), but the vast majority haven't a clue as to what they're singing. They accept Psa 51:10-12, but the reject the Circumcision of Christ. This is the epitome of confusion.

Also remember in Paul's time False Apostles began to appear. These teachers began to pull in the other direction. See 2 Corinthians 11
In verse 13 he tells them - 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Paul's words here will be used to strengthen some while at the same time cause others to turn aside!

 

[studier]

You ignore that all that natural men may know is of the existence of God. This is not experiential knowing which requires the Holy Spirit. The natural man does not have this.

I can only show you what verses like Rom1:28 clearly say. I can't make you agree with them.

Paul clearly says certain natural men who had experiential knowledge of God did not want to retain that experiential knowledge.

There is a reality that attends salvation. If you have been saved, you know it. You have become a new creation. God has come to you personally and directly and you are not the same.

Some do have this experience. But not all do. There's a reason John wrote things like this to teach a mindset of knowing we have eternal life:

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (1 Jn. 5:13 NKJ)

• So John wrote for this purpose: so his readers would know they have eternal life
  • This is knowledge by having information
    • We know this from the fact that John is providing information - he's teaching
    • We know this because the word "know" used here means at its most base, to have information.

The thought that you can know God without God being present is absurd.

Again, which goal post are you referring to now?

• The one I agreed with, meaning the intimate relationship with God in Christ in Spirit known as eternal life?
• Or the experiential knowledge of God that He has supernaturally given to all men?

When you move the goal posts it's easy to begin asserting absurdities that have not been stated. You're clever, but not that clever.

If you can't distinguish the difference between knowing that someone exists and interacting with someone and having experiential knowledge, I can't help you.

I'd agree that you can't help me to think Scripturally - meaning unscripturally as you do. So we both understand this.

I can read the Scripture which clearly says that natural man experientially knows God and is held responsible to function according to this experiential knowledge apart from God walking on the earth with a stick in His hand.

But to ignore the difference is to equate eternal life with natural life.

Again, I'm not ignoring anything you've said. I've pointed out where I see you disagreeing with Scripture. I've also pointed out where I think you're in accord with Scripture.

You're simply conflating error with accuracy and moving the goal posts in a failed attempt to assert that I don't know the difference between life and Life.

I personally stopped conversations with you because of your subtle snipes in our discourse. I see this hasn't changed. Grace and peace.

Well, obviously you didn't stop as here we are.

Unless you point out to me my "subtle snipes" I may not know where you see them. I've seen you use rhetoric and insinuations and direct statements that I and others have no understanding, so please consider your judgments. And please consider the use of rhetoric and sarcasm used in our Text.

 

[BillyBob]

Also remember in Paul's time False Apostles began to appear. These teachers began to pull in the other direction. See 2 Corinthians 11
In verse 13 he tells them - 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Paul's words here will be used to strengthen some while at the same time cause others to turn aside!

When you consider what Paul proclaimed, you can begin to see that when his teaching reaches the ears of those who have received a new heart – they will be strengthened. However, those who are not God's people will not hear and believe!
Is this God's method of separating wheat from tares?

 

[Rufus]

Parents are very forgiving when a child poops in its diaper.....
The baby does not know any better. Unmerited favor.

Yet.... the same parents?
They would not feel that way if the child were ten years old.

In that sense. God shows the baby Christian unmerited favor, while its yet carnal and lacking understanding.

In contrast to the baby believer..
The grace Paul received was what God gives the spiritually matured adult believer.
It was not unmerited favor.
Ironically. God's grace was given to Paul, so that God could make Paul into someone who would merit God's favor.

Big difference....

Huh...you're making the analogy that the helpless baby who is performing a natural body function is carnal and lacks understanding?

All grace is unmerited favor since no one deserves it. Grace gives to people what they don't deserve, not what they deserve. The only thing any human being deserves is God's justice since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[Mem]

i'm sure there are folks trying to help others, and i'm sure there are some just tryna be right. humans!

Can you provide us hint as to who's who?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.

Good entire post. But as for the direct quote of yours above, I was once one of those servants of the Devil, but I didn't know it. And so I would offer this: The vast majority of Christians who have yet to receive the Circumcision of Christ, they do not realize that they are NOT a child of God, but they remain held captive by the Devil to do his evil will. And like me, THEY DON'T KNOW IT EITHER.

And this is why I am persistent in teaching the Circumcision of Christ, for this is the Spiritual Work that takes the Lord's Elect, those who were chosen before the world began, from Spiritual death to Spiritual Life. So many get angry with these sayings, but my words are really words of hope. Why? Because those who belong to God, but have yet to receive His Spiritual Circumcision (and eventually they all will), are still under the captivity of the Devil. This should not make them angry, but it should inspire them to research the Circumcision of Christ SO THAT finally, they will know what they need to pray for so as to obtain Eternal Life. This is why ALL of Col 2:9-15 are absolutely critical for everyone to know . . . inside and out.

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

 

[PaulThomson]

Huh...you're making the analogy that the helpless baby who is performing a natural body function is carnal and lacks understanding?

All grace is unmerited favor since no one deserves it. Grace gives to people what they don't deserve, not what they deserve. The only thing any human being deserves is God's justice since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

How does Romans 13:8 fit with what you said here?

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[PaulThomson]

Read the tense of the verb in the last part of v.8: "While we WERE still sinners.

The "us COULD be...".? That's the best you can do? How about the "us" being Paul and the people to whom he wrote his epistle? Rather novel idea, to you no doubt? But let's give it a try for giggles, shall we?

Rom 1:7-9
To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
NIV

Doesn't sound like he addressed his letter to everyone in the world. Sounds to me he was writing to God's elect.

Addressing teaching TO some particular audience does not mean the teaching is only ABOUT that audience. Would you agree?

 

[PaulThomson]

Not hard to answer. Because God is glorified in all His attributes equally. He is just as glorified in love, grace, and mercy as He is in justice, sovereignty, omnipotence, and righteousness.
God is most glorified as He is known. And the more He is made known, the greater He appears. To know only some of God is to worship Him partially. But to understand and know God in more of His true reality, is to worship Him more fully.
God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him. How are we fully satisfied in a God we only know partly. Eternal life is knowing God the Father and God the Son.
I can appreciate that people want a God who is only loving, and gracious, and merciful. But this is not the God of the Bible.

Who here wants a God who is "ONLY loving, and gracious and merciful"?

 

[PaulThomson]

Such as?

14 I am a debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to unwise.
15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (Rom. 1:14-25 NKJ)


Assuming, as most do, that this is Paul explaining how all men know of God's existence, eternal power, and divinity - because God has revealed it in them - and who then decide whether or not to honor Him as God and be thankful to Him, then your statement some men never did hear about God is unbiblical.

God knows who has rejected Him. His love was evidenced in making certain all men know of Him and have been given the opportunity to seek and find Him.

From there we can see in biblical history that entire cultures were wiped out under God's command and nothing was to be left of them. Again, I see it as biblically clear that God knows who has rejected and will continue to reject Him. And since God is Love, then they reject Love.

Do you read these things that warrant the assertions you make, or do you create them yourself?

I wonder how Paul in the Spirit being a DEBTOR to all men to take them the gospel fits with the idea some have that no one DESERVES to have the gospel offered to them.

 

[PaulThomson]

Methinks we need to understand as best we can God’s Word in its entirety—not one verse at a time. God will put all of it together for us one fine day, and then it will flow so smoothly.

Could not both be true?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So you deny that throughout history that large numbers of people have been born, lived, and died never hearing the Gospel, hearing about Jesus, and hearing about the One true God?

I believe it has happened but could have been avoided had people done as God directed them.

When we think about St. Patrick.
Here is one man shipped to Ireland.
Within 15 years everyone knew about Jesus and the entire Island was Catholic.

No doubt that would have happened everywhere had men [OBEYED GOD] and went but many were like Jonah.

But assuredly if someone did go, God made sure they were successful.


In the Book of Jonah we see when he was thrown overboard he got entangled in seaweed and as he was literally dying it says he remembered God and basically prayed in his thoughts. Next thing he was in the belly of a whale.

But had Jonah not called out to God and died, whose to say what would have happened. No doubt God would have replaced him.

I mention Jonah because all those who denied the Call of God to go to many places had they died like Jonah but without repenting those souls would be on them. Much like the souls of Nineveh were charged to Jonah and it was Jonah's responsibility to preach to them.

 

[selahsays]

Could not both be true?

Sure!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And that "known world" was merely the Roman Empire. Today, there are still large areas of the world openly hostile toward Christ, his disciples and his gospel. The Mideast, China, India many parts of Muslim Africa, etc. And even here in the West governments are hostile towards Christ and his gospel.

And we have reached every nation now.
Still only 2.5 Billion believed the Gospel and 3.5 Billion rejected it.
Even with nationwide bans against Christianity we still see people choosing to go against the ban and Believe in Jesus.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I had a friend in seminary who spoke many times of the need for the doctrine of N.I.C.E. to be written. I forget what it stood for, but it was a biblical view against this human viewpoint concept that we just need to be nice to everybody.

I've been told I'm one who has been placed on "ignore" so maybe you'll unignore me at some point and you'll read this.

With all due respect and to be nice, you should listen to your doctors, find someone who will teach you what eating right means, because it's obvious from your other posts that you don't know even though you think you do, and you should find new doctors who actually provide not only the latest and best testing, but also provide proper medication and nutritional guidance for your condition. There have been specialized cancer centers for decades that focus on nutrition with good success.

Other than that, and again with all due respect, you should seek counseling for your emotional condition. Seek such from someone in Christ in Spirit who can work with you to help you properly understand and utilize the gifts within us from God.

The Christian Faith is not about being nice to everybody. It's about telling them the Truth and at times this can be or seem harsh.

Jesus said, Do you think that I came to bring PEACE?
NAY!
I came to bring DIVISION.

Jesus brought WAR amongst Believers and non believers.

51 “Do you suppose that I have come to bring shalom [peace] on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division."

 

[Rufus]

No. I don't hate it. I think it'a a silly and unbiblical and ungrammatical claim, and cannot agree with it because I would need to become silly and unbiblical and ungrammatical in order to agree with it.

It's not unbiblical at all. First, you deny a well established law of logic -- The Law of Excluded Middle. If someone is dead, then they cannot be alive. If someone is in pain, then they cannot be painless. And in either of these cases, there is no middle! There is no third option. A person is either dead or alive. Or one feels pain or not. Period.

Moreover, you conveniently ignore what Jesus taught in the passage that follows his teaching that actually speaks of vertical relationships -- between evil people and God, or more specifically in this passage between them and the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. And in this passage Jesus, once again, speaks in absolutes. And I will highly those absolutes -- these eternal truths -- which speak pointedly to the Law of Excluded Middle:

Matt 12:24-37
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus is revealing to his detractors their utter absurdity of their charge! What they said was totally illogical! A kingdom divided against itself cannot at the same time flourish, advance and prosper! A kingdom can only do these things if its at conciliation with itself.

29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Clearly, Jesus is teaching that there are only two kinds of people in this world with respect to their attitudes and relationship with Him. People who do not participate in Jesus' kingdom work because other things in life are more important to them, are actually saying (whether they realize it or not) that they are against Christ. And again, those don't gather with him, are just as culpable of their sin as those who are openly hostile and antagonistic toward him, his Church and his Kingdom. Hell will be loaded with ambivalent or complacent people who never gave a second thought to Christ's kingdom. Again, the Law of Excluded Middle is clearly implied here. Jesus, speaking in absolutes, didn't leave any wiggle room for third options.

33 "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who ARE evil [in your essence] say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
NIV

Here Jesus is very clearly contrasting good and evil -- with no middle ground! Make the tree [absolutely] good or make it bad (absolutely) which is done when anyone doesn't make the tree absolutely good! Don't forget: A little bit of leaven leavens the whole (total) loaf (Gal 5:9).

Then comes the big rhetorical question to the Serpent's seed, i.e. "you brood of vipers". The logical answer to this sharp, pointed question implies that it is totally incongruous for an evil heart to speak good of God, his Son, his Spirit or of his Kingdom. At the same time, it should be understood what Jesus was not saying! He was not telling those evil vipers that they can't fake it. That they cannot pretend to be lovers of God and his Son and speak flattering things about them. That kind of interpretation would flat out contradict
other scriptures, such as:

Mark 7:6
6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

"'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
NIV

What Jesus was saying was the same thing Paul was, which essentially is: Evil hearts cannot truly speak good of Christ and his Father and mean it (cf. 1Cor 12:3). Any evil person can physically (naturally) say it, but the spiritually dead cannot spiritually mean it! Anyone under the sun can confess with their lips that "Jesus is Lord" but that doesn't mean they truly mean what they say. Only those who actually possess the Spirit of life can actually mean it.

Before Adam sinned, God considered him to be "very good". But after just one sin...Adam and the entire universe became very damaged goods. The sin of one man destroyed much good (Eccl 9:18). This world became Satan's dominion of darkness because Adam relinquished his role as co-ruler with the Creator; consequently, Adam was unceremoniously ejected from the presence of God in the Garden because God's eyes are too pure to behold evil (Hab 1:13).










.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That's not what Romans 1 says. It says that one can know God exists through the things that are seen. It doesn't say He goes to each person. Big difference.

It actually is to everyone:
Verse 13-14 shows us who Paul is talking about:

13 But I desire that you be not ignorant, brethren, that I often purposed to come to you, and have been hindered to the present time, that I might have some fruit also among you, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.

14 Both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to wise and to unwise


This what [Gentiles, Greeks and to Barbarians, both to wise and to unwise] know and understand:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men that repress the truth in unrighteousness;

19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them, for God has manifested it to them.


That is pretty much EVERYONE!
Jews already know who God is [they know Yahweh]