Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

Free choice = free choice.

If we can not choose we can not love.

Selfishness vs love is a choice

We can follow Jesus or not follow Him.

Did eve have a choice. Is sinning a choice.??

Jesus asked the rich young ruler.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Jesus gave him a choice.
He was wrestling with himself. But chose to not follow Jesus.
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

It was possible to say and no.

Seems pretty simple. But some cling to a view that unbelievers cannot understand or choose to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

All of this will inevitably go back to where it began. It's best to watch whether or not some will actually work with Scripture vs. simply tell us what it means.

 

[studier]

I go to the store with my daughter. I'm going to buy some candy. I prefer to get chocolate. She likes gummy bears. I would rather have chocolate. That's my preference. But it's better for her if I get gummy bears.
This is all the passage is teaching. It's not a proof text concerning choice. But it is consistent with what it means to love your neighbor as yourself and to prefer others before yourself. That is what Paul would have people imitate...not the particular action, but the motivation for the action.

"not a proof-text concerning choice" while clearly speaking of choice and about the process of making a choice.

And again you deny choice by providing an analogy about making a choice. That's thrice, so clearly you are committed to it, Peter.

Paul is just interested in motivation but not action - 'Not my will, but Your will be done my motivation'

Our Lord: "Which of the two did the will of his father?" (Matt. 21:31 NKJ)​

​

Cameron: the one who was motivated Lord (but didn't do anything) because Paul said he just wanted people to imitate motivation.​

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Inquiring minds: How does one evidence motivation, Lord?​

​

Our Lord: Read and do My Word such as:​

​

NKJ Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.​

Your absurdities and free-willingness to modify Scripture are looking boundless.

Such modifying of Scripture is not evidence of walking in Spirit and thus not making good choices.

 

[Cameron143]

So, if we're walking in Spirit we will or will not choose to obey God's command to imitate Him as His beloved Children?

If one is walking in the Spirit, they are under the influence of the Spirit. Since the Spirit cannot sin, He is leading one in righteousness.
Have you lived your whole Christian life making every decision for yourself? Have you never cast your cares upon the Lord?

 

[TMS]

Seems pretty simple. But some cling to a view that unbelievers cannot understand or choose to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

All of this will inevitably go back to where it began. It's best to watch whether or not some will actually work with Scripture vs. simply tell us what it means.

I haven't read most past quotes but it is clear that people will keep going around in circles.

I am sad that calvanists have swallowed such a great deception.

The Calvinistic view is that the covering of justification makes us acceptable in God’s sight even if we do continue willfully sinning. They believe that the atonement saves us in this life from the results of sin but not from the sin itself. In effect, the message is declaring that the atonement does not so much change the nature of the Christian in relation to sin as it changes the nature of sin in relation to the Christian.

For some reason, after accepting Jesus, sin is not the same deadly factor it was before. By committing sin as an unconverted person we are doomed to destruction, but committing the same sins after being “saved” cannot prevent salvation.
1Jn 3:7-9
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[TMS]

If one is walking in the Spirit, they are under the influence of the Spirit. Since the Spirit cannot sin, He is leading one in righteousness.
Have you lived your whole Christian life making every decision for yourself? Have you never cast your cares upon the Lord?

Do we get to choose if we will walk in the flesh or the Spirit?

 

[TMS]

If one is walking in the Spirit, they are under the influence of the Spirit. Since the Spirit cannot sin, He is leading one in righteousness.
Have you lived your whole Christian life making every decision for yourself? Have you never cast your cares upon the Lord?

Does the Spirit force Himself on us. Force us to let Him lead. Forcefully control us.

 

[TMS]

So this is typically a post on calvinism vs Arminianism....

Calvinism: Limited Atonement means that Christ's sacrifice was exclusively for the elect and only efficient for their salvation. Arminianism: General Atonement, conversely, posits that Christ died for all people, and His atonement is available to all.

 

[Cameron143]

"not a proof-text concerning choice" while clearly speaking of choice and about the process of making a choice.

And again you deny choice by providing an analogy about making a choice. That's thrice, so clearly you are committed to it, Peter.

Paul is just interested in motivation but not action - 'Not my will, but Your will be done my motivation'

Our Lord: "Which of the two did the will of his father?" (Matt. 21:31 NKJ)​

​

Cameron: the one who was motivated Lord (but didn't do anything) because Paul said he just wanted people to imitate motivation.​

​

Inquiring minds: How does one evidence motivation, Lord?​

​

Our Lord: Read and do My Word such as:​

​

NKJ Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.​

Your absurdities and free-willingness to modify Scripture are looking boundless.

Such modifying of Scripture is not evidence of walking in Spirit and thus not making good choices.

How are you going to imitate God apart from God living in and through you? You can imitate God? How? Like the way you show disdain for people? Is that walking in the Spirit?

 

[Cameron143]

Does the Spirit force Himself on us. Force us to let Him lead. Forcefully control us.

No. But why would anyone want to live in the flesh? That doesn't please God.

 

[selahsays]

Is Paul speaking of Free Will?

• Some will likely say, Yes.
• Some will likely say, No.
• Will anybody define their terminology and explain their answer?

Upon a second reading of Philippians 1:21-25, as well as some scattered study, I don't believe Paul is discussing free will in this text—absolutely not.

In my opinion, Paul is essentially saying … If I live, I will teach Christ and bear fruit; and if I die, I will be with Christ and that would be gain.

Paul wasn’t trying to make a choice as he was totally aware of his mission since, on the way to Damascus, Jesus gave him some pretty clear instructions, right? Paul was also a tough guy. He was once killed (see 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 that describes his journey to the third heaven following his stoning). Paul endured a great deal of abuse in prison, including beatings, stoneings, whippings, shipwrecks, mob abuse, and a great deal of ridicule. So here is Paul's reflection, I think—but if I have to continue living in this physical body, I'm not sure which would be preferable when considering the differences between the two. It’s easy to understand Paul's thoughts regarding life and death, especially since he had experienced a glimpse of the third heaven. He understood that when his earthly ministry came to an end, he would immediately be with the Lord. …but he also knew that while he was still alive, the gospel had to be preached.

—Selah

 

[TMS]

No. But why would anyone want to live in the flesh? That doesn't please God.

That's the point.. as sinners we can't help it. The battle against self is one we can not win with our own strength.

Our hearts are evil
Jer 13:23 KJV Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Rom 7:18-20
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

JESUS SAVES US.

Rom 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

God wants to fill us with the Spirit and save us from the flesh... but we can not serve two masters. We need to die to self and allow God to live in us.

 

[TMS]

Paul wasn’t trying to make a choice

Paul made the unselfish choice
He could have chosen both. But he chose to continue.

We can choose to walk in the flesh or choose to walk in the Spirit.
We have a choice. Free Will. Like Paul

 

[selahsays]

Paul made the unselfish choice
He could have chosen both. But he chose to continue.

We can choose to walk in the flesh or choose to walk in the Spirit.
We have a choice. Free Will. Like Paul

Paul was a chosen vessel, one of God’s Elect. He had no choice. He was selected by God to to bear His name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel:

But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. "For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

- Acts 9:15-16

 

[selahsays]

… and no, I’m not a Calvinist—just a Christian who studies her Bible.

 

[PaulThomson]

How are you going to imitate God apart from God living in and through you? You can imitate God? How? Like the way you show disdain for people? Is that walking in the Spirit?

How would you answer this? - How does a child imitate her parents without the parents living in and through the child. Do you really believe a child can imitate her parents?

People imitate what they admire in others. A person who admires the character snd example of Christ can certainly try to imitate Christ. And God would be willing to help them do so, even if they do not yet own so-called orthodox Christian doctrines about God. Do you think God would hinder people who want to imitate Christ from imitating Him to some degree.

 

[PaulThomson]

What I see in how Paul speaks above about choosing:

• 1. It seems pretty simple and straight forward.
• 2. It's a specific instance when he was struggling between 2 choices.
• 3. It seems to match my experiential mental processes for as long as I can recall making choices - IOW nearly all my life.
• 4. It doesn't tell us about a choice in accepting or rejecting the Gospel, but the process certainly seems to fit what some say is the process of coming to faith in Jesus Christ once one has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this has information.
• 5. It does show us Paul thinks it quite natural to discuss choosing in words and concepts easily recognizable and understandable to us.
• 6. With the previously linked work defining haireō, we can see how this middle voice verb works in that Paul is choosing from some inclusion of self-interest, which in this case looks to be self-sacrifice as a son of God.
• 7. Is Paul speaking of Free Will?
  • Some will likely say, Yes.
  • Some will likely say, No.
  • Will anybody define their terminology and explain their answer?

1 - 3. I agree.

4. My experience of choosing to follow our Lord is that after discounting Christainity as something I was not interested in studying or following, predictions in the Bible caught my attention as one who was already experimenting with occult methods to predict the future. The internally diverse, fragmented and contradictory new age teachings I was studying became more and more difficult to disentangle from one another into a coherent worldview. The claim that one Teacher (Jesus Christ) and one book (the Bible) were sufficient to guide me through life became increasingly attractive. The idea of Jesus wiping away my sins through the cross became less unreasonable and more interesting, then more attractive.
Then Jesus appeared to me in a vision confirming that He was the only Teacher I needed and the Bible was the only Book I needed. At this point the cross became somewhat desirable. I put out a fleece, asking for a specific event to occur as confirmation that this insight re Jesus and the Bible was indeed from God. The sign coincidentally occurred. At this point message of the cross became very attractive and believable. Based on the persuasive force of this sequence of events I chose to go against my feelings that were still somewhat nervous about identifying as a Christian, and I chose instead to buy a Bible and join a church and obey the Bible when it says I should be immersed in Jesus name to seal my commitment to Him. Soon after this I burned all my occult material. There was a definite free choice I made between two somewhat attractive options that were in competition, where in my mind I weighed and adjusted priorities until I chose to prioritise my desire for an ongoing relationship with my Creator and Saviour over my previous desire for occult knowledge and power.

5. I agree. Paul is using words that comport with the process of my deciding to follow Christ.

6. Yes. many of the options we have to choose between, whether Christians or unbelievers, contain varying degrees of self-interest, and somehow we choose one above all the others to pursue in the moment.

7. I believe we call someone's will at any moment, the desire/s that they have prioritised as possibly worthy of having the number one position in that moment. Jesus will at various points in Gethsemane was conflicted: 1. to avoid the cross and 2. to do the Father's will. But the one He chose to act upon in the end was to do the Father's will.

 

[PaulThomson]

A person's nature guides their choices. For the lost, they are guided by their fallen nature. For the Christian who has a dual nature, the nature that is operating will guide choice. If you walk in the Spirit your choices will be guided by God. If you walk in the flesh, your fallen nature will guide your choices.

A persons nature is multi-faceted: body, soul and spirit.
The nature of the spirit is to engage with reality through spirits.
The nature of the soul is to engage with reality through ideas.
The nature of the flesh is to engage with reality through the physical senses.
The Bible never says that any of those three components of man are thoroughly corrupted, notwithstanding the opinions of some that they are.
Because they are not throughly corrupted, a person can receive a measure of spiritual understanding from the Holy Spirit via their spirit; practise a measure of reasonable thought and consideration with their mind; and experience a measure of healthy interaction with the physical world through their physical senses.

Therefore a fallen person can still make some wise choices, which may include to admire Christ and to want to imitate Him, using their spirit, mind and body. to do so. Romans 8 says that a fallen person's mind set on the flesh cannot please God; but that does not exclude a fallen person's mind set on what is spiritual from pleasing God at least sometimes, when good aspects of their spirit, mind and body happen to align and work together with the grace of God.

 

[notmyown]

hat does not exclude a fallen person's mind set on what is spiritual from pleasing God at least sometimes

without faith, it is impossible to please God.

 

[Cameron143]

That's the point.. as sinners we can't help it. The battle against self is one we can not win with our own strength.

Our hearts are evil
Jer 13:23 KJV Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Rom 7:18-20
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

JESUS SAVES US.

Rom 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

God wants to fill us with the Spirit and save us from the flesh... but we can not serve two masters. We need to die to self and allow God to live in us.

What do you think I've been talking about? We aren't to live independently of God, making our own choices. We are to cast our cares on Him and wait upon the Lord.
People who insist on making their own choices in their own way in their own time are not yielded to God.

Enough that God my Father knows,
Nothing this faith can dim.
He gives the very best to those
Who leave the choice with Him.
That's Hudson Taylor.

We aren't supposed to be running our own lives and deciding for ourselves. We are to deny ourselves, pick up the cross that God has placed before us, and follow. Followers aren't decides. They are those who respond to the will of another.
There is nothing about the Christian life that is to be separated from Christ. We can do nothing apart from Him. It's not that we can't choose for ourselves. But our choices are uninformed are what end up separating us from God.
The Christian life is to be lived in the power of God. We are not supposed to have a form of godliness and deny its power. We are to lose our life that we might gain the life of Christ.
If someone is arguing about making choices, they do not know what it is to walk in the power of the Spirit. They are clinging to their own independence from God, and not submitting to Him. They are living in their own strength, and the joy of the Lord is not their strength. They are living far below what is available to them in Christ.

 

[studier]

If one is walking in the Spirit, they are under the influence of the Spirit. Since the Spirit cannot sin, He is leading one in righteousness.
Have you lived your whole Christian life making every decision for yourself? Have you never cast your cares upon the Lord?

If walking in Spirit, have we made the choice to walk in Spirit as we are commanded to do?