Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[HeIsHere]

Good question. A few thoughts. Pardon the questions, but they are mostly rhetorical:

• Are we truly justified if we do not grow to live a justified life
  • 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 Jn. 3:7 NKJ)
• A few commands re: the Spirit:
  • 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (Gal. 5:16 NKJ)
  • 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Gal. 5:24-25 NKJ)
  • 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph. 4:30 NKJ)
  • 19 Do not quench/extinguish the Spirit. (1 Thess. 5:19 NKJ)
    • We also haven't discussed context here.
• Are we truly sanctified and being sanctified if we do not grow to live a sanctified life?
  • NKJ 1 Thess. 4:3-4 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,

Yes, I think the Spirit can be extinguished in a congregation (context?) and in an individual's life, just as the Spirit can be grieved, just as the flesh and deceit can cause transgression and error and a cessation of walking in Spirit. Then we need to discuss acknowledging sins, repentance, forgiveness, cleansing, etc., vs. falling away, deserting, falling from grace, Christ being of no benefit, etc...

Your question is essentially an eternal security question. I do believe in eternal security. I don't believe it applies to as many as some may think it does. I do believe the nearly 600 (as I recall) commands in the NC Epistles and the warnings therein are of great importance and not to be skimmed over with some false assurance of security.

I'm still on the fence with once justified/declared righteous always justified. At this time I place great importance on this:

65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (Jn. 6:65 NKJ)​

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I know the historical context, but I see this event and teaching of Jesus to be filled with information, much of which I think at this time can be generalized. I also see much importance to Jesus' lesson at the well in John4 because He emphatically says what God the Father is looking for in men.​

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I don't think this is a game we're playing here.​

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I trust God to determine who to grant to His Son and who not to.​

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I trust all of His commands to be important.​

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The saved vs. never saved is probably the best position I can state at this time. All His commands are thus meaningful instruction and mandate to those being saved. On the flip side they're devastating to the game players.​

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16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable/disgusting, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. (Tit. 1:16 NKJ)​

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Your thoughts?

Love it, I need at least 24 hours....may be longer

 

[studier]

Almost as amusing as the post where you exclaim that the insults must
stop, while you then continue insulting the person you are speaking to.

As I said, it's a challenge. And the challenge is to find the appropriate level of sarcasm. Have you seen me say anyone is satanic. And you have no issues with one who does?

How about you, you don't cast stones?

 

[studier]

Oh...so God can literally be "eliminated"? We mere mortals can terminate him? Or do men will to put Him out of their mind and heart?

To be clear, the highlighting was in the dictionary.

"quench" clearly carries the meaning "to extinguish." So, either are appropriate.

Take it from there.

 

[studier]

I need at least 24 hours....may be longer

Whenever you're ready.

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 3:6-7

 

[Cameron143]

To be clear, the highlighting was in the dictionary.

"quench" clearly carries the meaning "to extinguish." So, either are appropriate.

Take it from there.

Can an extinguished candle be relit?

 

[studier]

1 Corinthians 3:6-7

What does it mean to you that "neither...is anything"?

1 Cor. 3:6-9 NKJ
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.

• "anything" can also mean "prominence, importance"
• God is absolutely the most prominent one, the most important one and apart from Him we can do nothing - we can't even exist
• But does God allow His created beings - created in His image - those who are in His Son in Spirit - but are "not anything" to be His fellow-workers - those He works with - those who work in God's field - and those whose labors He will reward?

Ironically the more you make men worthless, the more you speak against God who thankfully sees things differently than you do. He tells us who He sees as worthless

 

[studier]

Can an extinguished candle be relit?

Do you really have to ask?

I could come back with, as long as it has some wax or oil or fuel left or there's some time left to go get some if nobody will share.

 

[Cameron143]

What does it mean to you that "neither...is anything"?

1 Cor. 3:6-9 NKJ
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.

• "anything" can also mean "prominence, importance"
• God is absolutely the most prominent one, the most important one and apart from Him we can do nothing - we can't even exist
• But does God allow His created beings - created in His image - those who are in His Son in Spirit - but are "not anything" to be His fellow-workers - those He works with - those who work in God's field - and those whose labors He will reward?

Ironically the more you make men worthless, the more you speak against God who thankfully sees things differently than you do. He tells us who He sees as worthless

It's not about making men worthless. It's about noting their effectiveness to produce change in another individual. That is, the planting and watering don't produce the yield. God alone causes the harvest.

 

[Cameron143]

Do you really have to ask?

I could come back with, as long as it has some wax or oil or fuel left or there's some time left to go get some if nobody will share.

The point is, an extinguished candle can be relit. Quenching the Spirit is a correctible offense.

 

[studier]

It's not about making men worthless. It's about noting their effectiveness to produce change in another individual. That is, the planting and watering don't produce the yield. God alone causes the harvest.

And He determined to and uses the planters and the waterers in the process, thus He does not view their labors as nothing and thus worthless.

 

[HeIsHere]

Ironically the more you make men worthless, the more you speak against God who thankfully sees things differently than you do. He tells us who He sees as worthless

Amen. I am so thankful He does.

The fact that we cannot pay back the debt in full or reach the righteous requirement of God's holy standard in no way hinders a person from realizing, acknowledging and accepting the benevolent offer of the Father's provision.

 

[studier]

The point is, an extinguished candle can be relit. Quenching the Spirit is a correctible offense.

As I said, as long as there is something to relight.

 

[Cameron143]

And He determined to and uses the planters and the waterers in the process, thus He does not view their labors as nothing and thus worthless.

The means God uses are nothing if God is not using them. They have no intrinsic value in and of themselves. This is the point God is making. He could make a people for Himself from a bag of rocks. Were that the case, we would be rock collectors. Then Paul would have said...he that collects the rocks is nothing, neither he that puts them in the bag; but of God who gives the increase.

 

[studier]

Amen. I am so thankful He does.

The fact that we cannot pay back the debt in full or reach the righteous requirement of God's holy standard in no way hinders a person from realizing, acknowledging and accepting the benevolent offer of the Father's provision.

You mean like realizing there is nothing we can do, then hearing and learning of and believing in the offeror and His benevolent offer, accepting and receiving it and being thankful for such mercy and grace and love, and having that affect us for all of our days here and forever?

I knew an elderly pastor ("A") who when younger had stayed at another, older pastor's ("B") home for awhile. B was very gracious and showed A great hospitality to the point where A grew a bit uncomfortable with all the grace being given to him. At some point A responded with the typical, 'I just couldn't' at which point the older and wiser B told A, 'A the sooner you learn to accept and receive grace freely offered to you, the sooner you'll come to understand grace and just say, thank you." Lesson learned. Thank you.

It's an absurdity to say all men are incapable of learning what's necessary to learn. Especially when the teacher is ultimately God.

 

[studier]

The means God uses are nothing if God is not using them. They have no intrinsic value in and of themselves. This is the point God is making. He could make a people for Himself from a bag of rocks. Were that the case, we would be rock collectors. Then Paul would have said...he that collects the rocks is nothing, neither he that puts them in the bag; but of God who gives the increase.

God is absolutely the most prominent one, the most important one and apart from Him we can do nothing - we can't even exist

Are you correcting me or agreeing with me?

 

[Cameron143]

Are you correcting me or agreeing with me?

I was merely pointing out that the worth of an individual is not what is in view in the passage.

 

[Cameron143]

As I said, as long as there is something to relight.

In Christ is there not an inexhaustible supply?

 

[Rufus]

Don't you still have your work cut out for you figuring out Prov1 language, dealing with all of your inserted points into it, and telling us how all of this Scripturally connects to the natural man? Guess not.

The Trinity argument once again. The word "Trinity" although not used in the Bible, is used to refer to the concept of the triune Godhead and is widely accepted. Therefore every other word or phrase not in the Bible that is used to refer to a concept in the Bible is also acceptable. There are a few fallacies here. I'll leave it to you to identify them.

I may be fine with discussing the "Trinity" concept with you because we likely could come to sufficient agreement on what it means.

This would not mean I'd accept your terminology or definitions of other terminology.



I think it's very clear that I have been disagreeing with your concept of "spiritual death" for 100's of posts now. As for the terminology itself, it's not a phrase used in the Bible, and it's thus open to selective definitions, and it's thus virtually worthless for our discussion.

What we're essentially arguing is the meaning of the phrase itself. What's the point of agreeing on the phrase while disagreeing on its meaning?

Back to Scripture.



Why yes I have.

I've read this also:

NKJ 1 Tim 6:20-21 O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge-- 21 by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen.

And this:

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
(Prov. 26:4-5 NKJ)

It's one of the Scriptures I had in mind when I began putting more effort into reading past your prolific ad hominem and sticking more to matters of Scripture. It is a challenge to unwind the two in your posts.

My "inserted points" in Prov 1 are all biblical -- unless of course you still think that being a "fool" is not as bad as it's cracked up to be.

And if you want to know what spiritual death really is, study the post-Fall narrative carefully. You might even discover the concept of separation in it in a couple of places.

 

[studier]

I was merely pointing out that the worth of an individual is not what is in view in the passage.

When we read for weeks and more that men are dead and can do absolutely nothing, it seems fair to respond to the posting of a verse that says men are not anything to point out that even that verse can read not that men are nothing, but are not of prominence or the main importance. And if a man is not anything, I think it fair to equate that to the man being worthless. As is usual, there are several things to think about from that verse and surrounding verses,