How non believers may view Christian's.

[Nufan]

I just have a quick question for everyone to consider. What is it that unifies the Christian faith? What is it that Christians are doing to impact the world in a positive way. I would also include non trinitarians in this discussion, as well as what many may consider to be cult like Christianity. Such as mormonism. I wanna know what unifies all Christians, followers, and believers in Jesus Christ, regardless of belife or religon. I wanna know how we all can come together to make a positive impact. I also believe that many non-believers want to know the same thing, and want to see this happening within the Christian community. For non believers to consider christianity as a valid example and somthing worthwhile to be part of. Unfortunately, it seems that most people who are Christian, are just focused on their own salvation, and what they believe is right, and coming against what they believe is wrong. I don't believe that this is really a good example of how to be a Christian, and a follower of Jesus Christ.
Could you please shed some light on this for me?
The unfortunate truth is that a lot of times I am embarrassed to call myself a Christian or to say that I'm a follower Christ, when the example is that Christians can't seem to be unified and disagree amongst themselves. We then claim that, our god is powerful that he's mighty and does great things, but pur god can't unify his people or clear up all the confusion. When you look at what's going on in the Christian community, typically the impression is the Christian churches are full of gossip, that they are mean and bigoted, and they are hypocritical, demanding that people do what they themselves are not able to do. I think, as a Christian community, if we were to take our eyes off of ourselves for a moment, and think about how the Christian community is reflecting God, we would then be more focused on making god look good, instead of making ourselves look good. Because really, we are the example that people look to, to determine what kind of God you're trying to convince non believers to follow, and it doesn't seem like it's a God worth following, when you take a look at the example of the followers of this god.

 

[RodB651]

I wanna know what unifies all Christians, followers, and believers in Jesus Christ, regardless of belife or religon. I wanna know how we all can come together to make a positive impact. I also believe that many non-believers want to know the same thing, and want to see this happening within the Christian community.

Just so you know, I'm shooting from the hip. I'm reading these questions and answering what comes to mind first...

In theory, its supposed to be that we are all united by a common belief in our Lord and Savior Jesus our Messiah. But for the most part, that's where it stops. Its been roughly 2000 years since the events in the gospels and Acts happened. Now here we are 2000 years later, with multiple belief systems, denominations, and/or movements. We believe a variety of things and unless someone is in our particular group, we disagree on most other things. Some read from Moses forward, some read from Paul backwards. Just my opinion, but until things get really bad and the "Church" has its backs against the wall, we're not going to agree on much if anything.

Unfortunately, it seems that most people who are Christian, are just focused on their own salvation, and what they believe is right, and coming against what they believe is wrong. I don't believe that this is really a good example of how to be a Christian, and a follower of Jesus Christ.
Could you please shed some light on this for me?

Yeah, you're pretty much right on that. You gotta be part of our group, or you better have an asbestos suit in your closet, cause you'll need for after judgement. The parts we don't like we just tell everyone that whatever that part is has been done away with anyway. Just come down to the altar, say a cute little prayer, and all is good. We like to keep it simple, don't wanna make it too hard on folks.

But also, there are a lot of churches out there that are doing good. They take care of widows, orphans, feed the hungry etc... Its not all bad. We're just not all on that page.

The unfortunate truth is that a lot of times I am embarrassed to call myself a Christian or to say that I'm a follower Christ, when the example is that Christians can't seem to be unified and disagree amongst themselves. We then claim that, our god is powerful that he's mighty and does great things, but pur god can't unify his people or clear up all the confusion. When you look at what's going on in the Christian community, typically the impression is the Christian churches are full of gossip, that they are mean and bigoted, and they are hypocritical, demanding that people do what they themselves are not able to do

That's a pretty good statement unfortunately. We do tend to act more like a social club. Yes, we tell people that our God is all powerful (He is!) and knows all things (and He does indeed). But we live like He's weak or generally not interested in what's going on with us or around us. I think He treats us the way we treat Him. That's my opinion of that.

I think, as a Christian community, if we were to take our eyes off of ourselves for a moment, and think about how the Christian community is reflecting God, we would then be more focused on making god look good, instead of making ourselves look good. Because really, we are the example that people look to, to determine what kind of God you're trying to convince non believers to follow, and it doesn't seem like it's a God worth following, when you take a look at the example of the followers of this god.

That's the real trick isn't it?
In general, we don't present a very good example do we? First, I have to get better. I have to focus on my walk with Him, I have to be a better example. I'll work on my part, everyone else can work on theirs, and go from there.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

I just have a quick question for everyone to consider. What is it that unifies the Christian faith? What is it that Christians are doing to impact the world in a positive way. I would also include non trinitarians in this discussion, as well as what many may consider to be cult like Christianity. Such as mormonism. I wanna know what unifies all Christians, followers, and believers in Jesus Christ, regardless of belife or religon. I wanna know how we all can come together to make a positive impact. I also believe that many non-believers want to know the same thing, and want to see this happening within the Christian community. For non believers to consider christianity as a valid example and somthing worthwhile to be part of. Unfortunately, it seems that most people who are Christian, are just focused on their own salvation, and what they believe is right, and coming against what they believe is wrong. I don't believe that this is really a good example of how to be a Christian, and a follower of Jesus Christ.
Could you please shed some light on this for me?
The unfortunate truth is that a lot of times I am embarrassed to call myself a Christian or to say that I'm a follower Christ, when the example is that Christians can't seem to be unified and disagree amongst themselves. We then claim that, our god is powerful that he's mighty and does great things, but pur god can't unify his people or clear up all the confusion. When you look at what's going on in the Christian community, typically the impression is the Christian churches are full of gossip, that they are mean and bigoted, and they are hypocritical, demanding that people do what they themselves are not able to do. I think, as a Christian community, if we were to take our eyes off of ourselves for a moment, and think about how the Christian community is reflecting God, we would then be more focused on making god look good, instead of making ourselves look good. Because really, we are the example that people look to, to determine what kind of God you're trying to convince non believers to follow, and it doesn't seem like it's a God worth following, when you take a look at the example of the followers of this god.

The flaw with this simplified idea that people need to focus less on self is that most Christians believe what they're doing IS the right way. So there's no reason for them to change what they're doing because it's everyone else who is doing it wrong.
I think part of this is fed by three types of people. Pharisees and new or untrained Christians and the unsaved.
The religious ones, just as in Jesus time, love to use their knowledge as power over others. They don't change because they are convinced they have figured it all out.
The others are the new and poorly taught. These people don't change because most churches are more interested in getting non-Christians in the church than feeding the church members good doctrine and encouraging spiritual growth. So the new/untrained hold on to worldly views and values and behaviors.
As, also mentioned before, many churches focus so much on attracting non-Christians that it fills churches up with the unsaved. For myself growing up, my churches taught the congregation to witness to their friends and family, not to bring them to church to be witnessed to during the Sunday morning sermon.
So there's actually three things that interfere with unity.
I'm sure there's more problems than that, but I believe those are three big ones.

 

[SonJudgment]

The world is of no real importance to Christians at the least of it, and at the most of it the world is outright the enemy of God. Three beliefs are essential to be within the unity of the religion of Christianity and distinguish Christianity from the false religions which wholesale reject all three of the beliefs, and heretical cults that may hold 1 or 2 of these beliefs but neglect the others.

1. Belief in the divine conception of Jesus to Mary when she was a virgin, his life and ministry, his crucifixion for sins, his resurrection and being witnessed by the disciples, his ascension into heaven, and his promise to come again and judge the all people that ever lived. This belief is more thoroughly explained in the Apostle's Creed.

2. Belief in the Trinity doctrine that accurately describes God as being one God in three persons; the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. This belief is more thoroughly explained in the Athanasian Creed.

3. Belief in the Bible as a true and holy text and as the primary document of the religion of Christianity that describes the truth about God, humanity, the creation, doctrines, history, and prophecy.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

I just have a quick question for everyone to consider. What is it that unifies the Christian faith? What is it that Christians are doing to impact the world in a positive way. I would also include non trinitarians in this discussion, as well as what many may consider to be cult like Christianity. Such as mormonism. I wanna know what unifies all Christians, followers, and believers in Jesus Christ, regardless of belife or religon. I wanna know how we all can come together to make a positive impact. I also believe that many non-believers want to know the same thing, and want to see this happening within the Christian community. For non believers to consider christianity as a valid example and somthing worthwhile to be part of. Unfortunately, it seems that most people who are Christian, are just focused on their own salvation, and what they believe is right, and coming against what they believe is wrong. I don't believe that this is really a good example of how to be a Christian, and a follower of Jesus Christ.
Could you please shed some light on this for me?
The unfortunate truth is that a lot of times I am embarrassed to call myself a Christian or to say that I'm a follower Christ, when the example is that Christians can't seem to be unified and disagree amongst themselves. We then claim that, our god is powerful that he's mighty and does great things, but pur god can't unify his people or clear up all the confusion. When you look at what's going on in the Christian community, typically the impression is the Christian churches are full of gossip, that they are mean and bigoted, and they are hypocritical, demanding that people do what they themselves are not able to do. I think, as a Christian community, if we were to take our eyes off of ourselves for a moment, and think about how the Christian community is reflecting God, we would then be more focused on making god look good, instead of making ourselves look good. Because really, we are the example that people look to, to determine what kind of God you're trying to convince non believers to follow, and it doesn't seem like it's a God worth following, when you take a look at the example of the followers of this god.

This is the answer.

>Everlasting Life <

/\ God offers His everlasting kindness/\

 

[ResidentAlien]

I'm not ashamed to call myself Christian or of being a follower of Christ. True Christianity is nothing to be ashamed of.

"If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

 

[Lynx]

I just have a quick question for everyone to consider. What is it that unifies the Christian faith? What is it that Christians are doing to impact the world in a positive way. I would also include non trinitarians in this discussion, as well as what many may consider to be cult like Christianity. Such as mormonism. I wanna know what unifies all Christians, followers, and believers in Jesus Christ, regardless of belife or religon. I wanna know how we all can come together to make a positive impact. I also believe that many non-believers want to know the same thing, and want to see this happening within the Christian community. For non believers to consider christianity as a valid example and somthing worthwhile to be part of. Unfortunately, it seems that most people who are Christian, are just focused on their own salvation, and what they believe is right, and coming against what they believe is wrong. I don't believe that this is really a good example of how to be a Christian, and a follower of Jesus Christ.
Could you please shed some light on this for me?
The unfortunate truth is that a lot of times I am embarrassed to call myself a Christian or to say that I'm a follower Christ, when the example is that Christians can't seem to be unified and disagree amongst themselves. We then claim that, our god is powerful that he's mighty and does great things, but pur god can't unify his people or clear up all the confusion. When you look at what's going on in the Christian community, typically the impression is the Christian churches are full of gossip, that they are mean and bigoted, and they are hypocritical, demanding that people do what they themselves are not able to do. I think, as a Christian community, if we were to take our eyes off of ourselves for a moment, and think about how the Christian community is reflecting God, we would then be more focused on making god look good, instead of making ourselves look good. Because really, we are the example that people look to, to determine what kind of God you're trying to convince non believers to follow, and it doesn't seem like it's a God worth following, when you take a look at the example of the followers of this god.

Well you can't pin it ALL on bad Christians. There are a lot of unbelievers who are deliberately ignoring a lot of good Christians and focusing on bad Christians, so they can justify not being Christians themselves.


In this regard Christianity is like many things - exercise, cooking, stock market investment, video games, you name it.
- Some do it for its own sake and benefit.
- Some do it so they can feel good about their accomplishments.
- Some take that farther and start looking down on those who do not do it, and even looking down on those who don't do it as well as they can.
- Some of these get VERY competitive and start big arguments about which one can do it better.
- Some do only the parts they like, and don't really benefit at all, but they hang around because they like thinking they are part of that group.
- Some think they should do it, they see the benefits of it, but they don't really want to.
- Some of those seek to justify their own decision to not do it by pointing to the ones who do it wrong. "See? THAT'S why I don't do it! Look at those pathetic twits!"

As a friend of mine has recently discovered, it's not a problem endemic to Christianity. It's just human nature, and it will show up in any big activity that a lot of humans participate in. Pride and indolence conspire to wreck a LOT of stuff.

When I was biking to lose weight, I couldn't do anything about those guys who use biking as a source of pride. I couldn't do anything about the people who would bike, but didn't want to put out the effort. I couldn't do anything about the people who pointed at the prideful bikers and used that to deride biking as a whole. (They are out there, believe you me!) All I could do was push the pedals, bike to w*rk and back and trim my gut for my own benefit.

And that's all I can do as a Christian too. Can't do a doggone thing about what other people do. All I can do is be a Christian myself.

 

[Nufan]

I'm really surprised with all the good answers. Thank you for taking the time to take this into consideration. Although I have grown tired of people running to their Bible to quote things and preach about how we should live. But you don't see any unity. I would like to see that they start coming together unified. Because I believe that there are core beliefs that we can all be unified in. And all this devision and confusion just don't seem to be the work of a all loving and all powerful god. I'm hoping that maybe this will shed some light on how someone who is a non-believer can become overwhelmed and even skeptical of Christianity.

 

[Lynx]

I'm really surprised with all the good answers. Thank you for taking the time to take this into consideration. Although I have grown tired of people running to their Bible to quote things and preach about how we should live. But you don't see any unity. I would like to see that they start coming together unified. Because I believe that there are core beliefs that we can all be unified in. And all this devision and confusion just don't seem to be the work of a all loving and all powerful god. I'm hoping that maybe this will shed some light on how someone who is a non-believer can become overwhelmed and even skeptical of Christianity.

Well we've had a lot of time to think about it. The topic comes up here on the forum every once in a while.

 

[Lynx]

Also, howdy and welcome to the forum.

Although you have been here for some time... But this is your first time venturing into the parts I hang out in, so to me you're new here. So howdy.

 

[Nufan]

Also, howdy and welcome to the forum.

Although you have been here for some time... But this is your first time venturing into the parts I hang out in, so to me you're new here. So howdy.

Thank you. I just found this bible verse that seems to touch on an issue that Christianity is struggling with.


1 Timothy 6:4-5

English Standard Version



4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

 

[ResidentAlien]

And all this devision and confusion just don't seem to be the work of a all loving and all powerful god.

It's not the work of an all-loving all-powerful God. It's the work of confused people who think they have ultimate truth. Those who truly know and understand His word know there's not a whole lot worth arguing and causing divisions over. You may be absolutely 100% right about something, but if all you do is go around stirring up friction and conflicts, that doesn't mean you're anything special; it just means you're someone who likes to stir up friction and conflicts.

 

[Lynx]

Thank you. I just found this bible verse that seems to touch on an issue that Christianity is struggling with.


1 Timothy 6:4-5

English Standard Version



4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

Yeah. I know some people like that.

I think that part of the bible goes on to say something like, you should avoid them. Which I try to do, because I find when I avoid them it's MUCH better for my blood pressure.

 

[Nufan]

It's not the work of an all-loving all-powerful God. It's the work of confused people who think they have ultimate truth. Those who truly know and understand His word know there's not a whole lot worth arguing and causing divisions over. You may be absolutely 100% right about something, but if all you do is go around stirring up friction and conflicts, that doesn't mean you're anything special; it just means you're someone who likes to stir up friction and conflicts.

Well, I suppose I'm sharing what I'm sharing because I'm really questioning the Christian faith right now. I'm not saying that all Christians are bad. I'm saying that all churches are bad. Because none of them are unified. So why would I listen to their sermon? And why would I take their beliefs serious if this church is going to sow division and not bring about unity. Let's use an example. Let's assume you come across someone who was considered to be very learned, and very wise. Let's assume that they have credentials, and certificates to prove that they are someone that you should learn from, and that you should take the advice from. Now let's assume that this same individual is also an alcoholic, and they drink themselves into a drunken stupor every night. Now, my question is, if you know
this, does it really matter if the person is learned, and wise, and has credentials, and certificates, proving that they are someone that you Should learn from. All this wisdom, and all this knowledge, and all these certificates, and all these qualifications, where did it lead them? It led them to drunkenness. So if you follow them, where will it lead you? Somone can know the Bible from front to back. They can know the bible word-for-word, and give the most beautiful sermons. If their fruit in their own life is bad, then they can only teach you how to be bad fruit.

 

[notmyown]

in general, i am uncomfortable denigrating the Church, because in my many decades on the planet i've learned you don't talk smack about a man's bride. especially not the Man Christ Jesus.

but that All Wise Man once said,

“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

 

[ResidentAlien]

Well, I suppose I'm sharing what I'm sharing because I'm really questioning the Christian faith right now. I'm not saying that all Christians are bad. I'm saying that all churches are bad. Because none of them are unified. So why would I listen to their sermon? And why would I take their beliefs serious if this church is going to sow division and not bring about unity. Let's use an example. Let's assume you come across someone who was considered to be very learned, and very wise. Let's assume that they have credentials, and certificates to prove that they are someone that you should learn from, and that you should take the advice from. Now let's assume that this same individual is also an alcoholic, and they drink themselves into a drunken stupor every night. Now, my question is, if you know
this, does it really matter if the person is learned, and wise, and has credentials, and certificates, proving that they are someone that you Should learn from. All this wisdom, and all this knowledge, and all these certificates, and all these qualifications, where did it lead them? It led them to drunkenness. So if you follow them, where will it lead you? Somone can know the Bible from front to back. They can know the bible word-for-word, and give the most beautiful sermons. If their fruit in their own life is bad, then they can only teach you how to be bad fruit.

Fair enough. I ask the following questions because I genuinely don't know the answer and would like your take on it.

I hear a lot of people say the body of Christ needs unity, but what would that look like as you imagine it? What would need to happen for unity to become a reality? Would all denominations disappear overnight? Would every group that says it believes in Jesus be united under one banner? Will people eventually come to a consensus about the truth of God's word? What would your version of unity look like? I'm all for unity, I just see it as an impossibility unless something really major happens to wake people out of their dream world. Then most of the things they see as important now won't seem quite as important anymore.

 

[Lynx]

Well, I suppose I'm sharing what I'm sharing because I'm really questioning the Christian faith right now. I'm not saying that all Christians are bad. I'm saying that all churches are bad. Because none of them are unified. So why would I listen to their sermon? And why would I take their beliefs serious if this church is going to sow division and not bring about unity. Let's use an example. Let's assume you come across someone who was considered to be very learned, and very wise. Let's assume that they have credentials, and certificates to prove that they are someone that you should learn from, and that you should take the advice from. Now let's assume that this same individual is also an alcoholic, and they drink themselves into a drunken stupor every night. Now, my question is, if you know
this, does it really matter if the person is learned, and wise, and has credentials, and certificates, proving that they are someone that you Should learn from. All this wisdom, and all this knowledge, and all these certificates, and all these qualifications, where did it lead them? It led them to drunkenness. So if you follow them, where will it lead you? Somone can know the Bible from front to back. They can know the bible word-for-word, and give the most beautiful sermons. If their fruit in their own life is bad, then they can only teach you how to be bad fruit.

Oooooh... It's almost like you intentionally provided a demonstration of what I was saying.

"See? See those lazy people who don't do gyms and biking and crossfit the right way? THAT'S why I don't exercise. What good does it do?"

No, that doesn't mean exercise is inherently detrimental, or even useless. It just means you pointed out some people who are doing it wrong.

Now, can you clean off your glasses and see the people who are doing it right? Can you see the ones who are doing most of it right (and benefiting from it) but doing one or two parts wrong? Can you learn from what they are doing right, and avoid their mistakes?

 

[Eli1]

Post #7 has a lot of wisdom.
God bless you @Nufan .

 

[Lynx]

There is also the often mentioned point that if your church was perfect, you would not be allowed in the door. Your presence would make it imperfect.

 

[Nufan]

in general, i am uncomfortable denigrating the Church, because in my many decades on the planet i've learned you don't talk smack about a man's bride. especially not the Man Christ Jesus.

but that All Wise Man once said,

“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

I agree that all men know that you are my disciple.If you love one another but really that's the problem.As I don't believe that the churches are loving , they are bigoted. Also what Make you think that just because its a church that they have their lamp.I would argue the fact that most of the churches and the world today have lost their lampstand. I'm simply pointing out how I would discern if it's a church with a lampstand. Is the church truly loving or is it an act? My experience has been that usually churches are more focused on increasing the numbers. They want butts in the seat and money in the plate, and they'll do whatever they have to make that happen.Because it's a business. You will actually find that when it comes to the pastor his success usually is determined by the amount of people in his congregation that attend on a regular basis and that The Other pastors that have the Higher numbers will look Down on The Other pastors that have the lower numbers and they will become judgmental towards them. Also, when you're dealing with higher upd, you're dealing with an organization that supports and funds the church, and the congregation. Then you have to play by their rules and do what they want. And that's where things start to get messy too. The pastor can't teach what he wants to teach, he can't really share the truth the way that he knows that he should share the truth, because he's being censored and monitored because they're more concerned about making money then actually teaching people how to follow christ and be a true disciple of Jesus. Why because being a disciple of Jesus Christ and truly following him is not popular.They've tested it, they know it doesn't work. Also, there's a fear that if one becomes a strong follower of Jesus Christ, that they would no longer need the institution. They gotta keep you in a state of longing for more. They gotta keep you in a state of searching for more. They gotta keep you in a state of lack so you're invested and dependent on the church and what they offer you. I don't know when a church building and a pastor and an institution and a business model became the church or the bride of Christ, because the bibles very clear that when 2 or more gathered in my name, I am there amongst them. The church is the believers coming together and sharing praying and helping one another. Not going to an establishment, and donating your money for a service, a sermon, and a music performance. It's become more like a social gathering or a club than anything else, and it seems like church members keep this jesus private and only share it amongst other club members. Again, I'm not saying that all are like that. But the bar is so low now to become a Christian, anyone can become a follower of Christ now. Really that's complete nonsense. To say that all I have to do is say a prayer and come to the altar. And I'll be saved is complete nonsense. We are told in scripture that the path is narrow.
So how can you tell me that all I have to do is say a little prayer and come to the altar and I'll be saved. That's not a narrow path.