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Right we are more than conquerors dead or alive 
Romans 8:35-39
King James Version (KJV)
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:35-39
King James Version (KJV)
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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No one is going to disagree that the middle wall of partition has been broken down and Christ has made both the Jew and Gentile one, but only in Christ and only those that have believed become one body. The remainder of Israel, who has not believed upon the Son are still in unbelief (Rom 11) as well as the Gentiles. The nation of Israel (Zion/Jerusalem), who is blinded in unbelief, is still the apple of His eye (Deut 32:9,10, Zech 2:8) and God will provoke them to jealousy (Rom 11:11).
Zone, just read the following passage over and over until the Holy Spirit takes it and writes it upon your heart through mercy...
Rom 11:23-36 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in . 26 And so all Israel shall be saved : as it is written , There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes : but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed , that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy . 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again ? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Zone, just read the following passage over and over until the Holy Spirit takes it and writes it upon your heart through mercy...
Rom 11:23-36 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in . 26 And so all Israel shall be saved : as it is written , There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes : but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed , that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy . 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again ? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Originally Posted by 4runner
If we are conquerors, then why do you want to run from the fight?
If we are conquerors, then why do you want to run from the fight?
D
People, do your History.. When were bible given to peopl...
People didnt use to have bibles on the 1700s and down..
People only hear the scriptures in the churches, they were tought..
But when bible were given to people around 1750s, They study for them self
And guest what.. That was when they learn the truth...
People can call the pre-trib rapture a new dotrine.. But actually is a new view of the bible..
Again, people didnt have bibles in the past, they only listen in the churches..
But after 1750s, people started getting there own bibles and reading it and studying it.. and they learned the truth.........
CAN YOU SEE NOW, WHY WAS THE DOTRINE OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE NOT REVEAL UNTIL THAT TIME
People didnt use to have bibles on the 1700s and down..
People only hear the scriptures in the churches, they were tought..
But when bible were given to people around 1750s, They study for them self
And guest what.. That was when they learn the truth...
People can call the pre-trib rapture a new dotrine.. But actually is a new view of the bible..
Again, people didnt have bibles in the past, they only listen in the churches..
But after 1750s, people started getting there own bibles and reading it and studying it.. and they learned the truth.........
CAN YOU SEE NOW, WHY WAS THE DOTRINE OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE NOT REVEAL UNTIL THAT TIME
J
Sorry folks there will not be a rapture according to the bible. This doctrine stems from the misunderstood prophecies about the saints meeting the Lord in the air, (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) vs 17 says " Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." However this right AFTER the great tribulation according to Matthew 24:29-31. And they only meet the Lord there and come right back down to earth to fight, this is where the armies with the Lord come from in Rev 19:12-14 also described in Zech 14:5 "and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee. If there were going to be a rapture before the great tribulation Jesus wouldn't be tellin you to flee in Matt 24:16 nor would there be any saints left to be worn out by the antichrist for 3 1/2 yrs in Rev 12:17 "and the dragon (satan) was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Notice this same woman (representing Israel and the true followers of Christ, as you can find out from Gen 37) flees into the wilderness as Jesus commanded for 1,260=3 1/2 yrs. Also Daniel 7:25 "And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time (1 yrs)+ a times (2 yrs) +the dividing of a time (half a yr)=3 1/2 yrs. Doesnt look like they got raptured off if he wearing them out for 3 1/2 yrs. Also read Daniel 8:25. There are many other scritures which show that if you dont flee and are waiting for a rapture, you will be in for the most troubling time that has ever been. hope this brings some clarity
E
Rapture is a latin word which means to "catch up" or to be "caught up" Paul tells us we will be "caught up" with Christ.
Thats the problem with using these latin and greek words which are transliterated instead of interpreted. People confuse words like Tongues (languages) Baptism (immersion or placed into) and rapture (caught up) people confuse and misinterpret them
Thats the problem with using these latin and greek words which are transliterated instead of interpreted. People confuse words like Tongues (languages) Baptism (immersion or placed into) and rapture (caught up) people confuse and misinterpret them
J
Okay show me this "different event" in the bible. And like I already showed you the bible shows in many places that the saints are worn out for 3 1/2 yrs. If he was only talking to the Jews, maybe those saints should've listened. Jesus already told you "salvaltion is of the Jews" John 4:22. Your opinion, without any scripture to back it, doesn't hold any weight and the bible does not support your ideas. Show me where the BIBLE speaks of a rapture before the tribulation.
The bible says in several places that Christians are saved from the wrath. Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9
At the event in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4, we rise up to meet Christ IN THE AIR. At the events in Matt 24, Christ returns with his angels TO THE EARTH to fight armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom.
The saints in Rev are referring to the believers that will be here after the church is raptured, not to Christian believers.
More here:
Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together
At the event in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4, we rise up to meet Christ IN THE AIR. At the events in Matt 24, Christ returns with his angels TO THE EARTH to fight armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom.
The saints in Rev are referring to the believers that will be here after the church is raptured, not to Christian believers.
More here:
Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together
I DON'T AFFIRM EVERYTHING THE AUTHOR BELIEVES (millennial reign, i.e), but this point of this article is that there are saints in the trib and they're not a new breed of saints. they're the church, the same one s who enter the trib.
NO PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE
The Saints And The Wrath Of God
by Ed Tarkowski
There will be saints in the tribulation, and these saints will be the same ones who see the beginning of the tribulation:
They offer prayers:
Jew or gentile, male or female, rich or poor can all be saints ONLY BY the shed blood of Christ. So MUST BE the saints in the tribulation. The unbelieving Jews in the tribulation are not saints. The unbelieving Gentiles in the tribulation are not saints. Those who are saints belong to Christ and are members of the church. Any doctrine that says the saints are raptured and God saves more saints to be in the tribulation have to create a new, biblically undefined species of "saint" and come under the warnings of Revelation 22:17-20.
Why people nullify the word of God by following the perverted teachings of men and jeapordize their spiritual inheritance in the Rev 22 verses, I don't understand. They would deny the saint's presence in the tribulation by verbal gymnastics when it clearly says they are present within it. There is nothing to distinguish the saints in tribulation from any other saint. They pray during it, they are martyred during it, the persevere during it, they keep their garments pure during all their trials and Jesus addresses encouragement to them in it:
I would love to hear a TRUE definition of what distinguishes the blood-bought saints of the tribulation saints from those who are supposedly raptured before the tribulation.
I don't understand why pretribbers don't understand that they're going to be present when the wrath is poured out? The church returns with Jesus when He treads out the wrath in Revelation 19. All the saints will be there and witness it and the glory of our salvation will be seen: that wrath will not hurt us having been raptured just before it WITH THEIR BODY CHANGED TO BE IMMORTAL WHICH WILL NOT BE SUBJECT TO DESTRUCTION OR CORRUPTION. The wrath won't hurt us one bit.
The seven bowls of wrath, poured out before these events, are on the kingdom of the antichrist and won't harm the saints because they are not of his kingdom (just as Israel didn't experience the plagues of Egypt).
The Wrath Of Revelation In Relation To The Saints
The first bowl is poured out on those who have the mark of the beast and worship his image. The saints in the trib - AND THERE ARE SAINTS IN THE TRIB - are exempt from this bowl:
None of these bowls have anything to do with the church. The pretrib argument that the church won't be in the tribulation because they are not meant for wrath is a useless defense BECAUSE THE BOWLS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM even if they are present. In fact, the saints find themselves smack-dab in the middle of the outpouring of God's wrath in the person of Christ because they return with Him when He pours out that wrath after the first six bowls:
You can respect men, but respected men have fostered great apostasy in the church because men don't read their bibles but look for implications or suppositions to prove their point and for someone else to do their thinking for them. This kind of garbage has been in the Church for decades and has increased and the devil is deceiving more men more than ever. The time is very short I would say.
There are BLOOD-BOUGHT saints in the trib who will see all of this wrath of God on the evil of this world and they will not be affected because they are in Christ. NO PRETRIBBER has been able to explain WITH SCRIPTURE why God pulls out the entire Church before the trib because that is His pattern and then saves some more to go through the trib. EXPLAIN WHY GOD BROKE HIS PATTERN BY SAVING MORE SAINTS TO GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION???
The answer is simple to those who have eyes to see.
http://www.velocity.net/~edju70/SaintsWrath.htm
NO PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE
The Saints And The Wrath Of God
by Ed Tarkowski
There will be saints in the tribulation, and these saints will be the same ones who see the beginning of the tribulation:
They offer prayers:
(Rev 5:8 KJV) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
The prayers are the saints on earth as "they ascend up before God": (Rev 8:3-4 KJV) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. {4} And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
After the Lord delivers God's final wrath, the saints are rewarded, not seven years before or near the end of the tribulation as other doctrines propose: (Rev 11:18 KJV) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The antichrist makes war with the saints during the tribulation: (Rev 13:7 KJV) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The saints must persevere during the tribulation: (Rev 13:10 KJV) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
The saints must have patience during the tribulation: (Rev 14:12 KJV) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The blood of the saints is shed during the tribulation: (Rev 16:6 KJV) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
The blood of the saints is shed during the tribulation: (Rev 17:6 KJV) And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
In Babylon is found the blood of the saints: (Rev 18:24 KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
ALL the saints are in the holy city at the end of the millennium, which, if you think about it, are saints just like those in the tribulation because there are no classifications of saints. Saints are saints: (Rev 20:9 KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
SAINT (Strong's) sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Jew or gentile, male or female, rich or poor can all be saints ONLY BY the shed blood of Christ. So MUST BE the saints in the tribulation. The unbelieving Jews in the tribulation are not saints. The unbelieving Gentiles in the tribulation are not saints. Those who are saints belong to Christ and are members of the church. Any doctrine that says the saints are raptured and God saves more saints to be in the tribulation have to create a new, biblically undefined species of "saint" and come under the warnings of Revelation 22:17-20.
Why people nullify the word of God by following the perverted teachings of men and jeapordize their spiritual inheritance in the Rev 22 verses, I don't understand. They would deny the saint's presence in the tribulation by verbal gymnastics when it clearly says they are present within it. There is nothing to distinguish the saints in tribulation from any other saint. They pray during it, they are martyred during it, the persevere during it, they keep their garments pure during all their trials and Jesus addresses encouragement to them in it:
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Only a saint can do these things, a saint who is committed to Jesus with his very life's blood. How ridiculous the theories that deny God's word. I would love to hear a TRUE definition of what distinguishes the blood-bought saints of the tribulation saints from those who are supposedly raptured before the tribulation.
I don't understand why pretribbers don't understand that they're going to be present when the wrath is poured out? The church returns with Jesus when He treads out the wrath in Revelation 19. All the saints will be there and witness it and the glory of our salvation will be seen: that wrath will not hurt us having been raptured just before it WITH THEIR BODY CHANGED TO BE IMMORTAL WHICH WILL NOT BE SUBJECT TO DESTRUCTION OR CORRUPTION. The wrath won't hurt us one bit.
The seven bowls of wrath, poured out before these events, are on the kingdom of the antichrist and won't harm the saints because they are not of his kingdom (just as Israel didn't experience the plagues of Egypt).
The Wrath Of Revelation In Relation To The Saints
The first bowl is poured out on those who have the mark of the beast and worship his image. The saints in the trib - AND THERE ARE SAINTS IN THE TRIB - are exempt from this bowl:
Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
The second and third bowls are poured out upon the waters of earth as a judgment ON THOSE WHO KILLED GOD'S SAINTS AND PROPHETS (v. 6). The saints naturally are exempt from this bowl: Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
The fourth bowl is poured out on the sun to scorch UNREPENTANT MEN (v. 11) with fire. The saints in the trib are exempt from this bowl: Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
The fifth bowl is poured out on the kingdom of the beast and its inhabitants because they REPENTED NOT. The saints in the trib are exempt from this bowl: Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
The sixth bowl is poured out to bring the kings of the east (which are definitely not the saints) and evil spiritual forces call the world's armies to Armageddon. The saints are exempt from this bowl: Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
As these forces gather for Armageddon, what follows is the rapture of the Church (the saints on earth included). The saints are exempt from this bowl. In fact, Jesus tells the saints in the next verse: Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
We are deep into the tribulation with the kingdom of darkness falling into pieces, the evil armies gathering to Armageddon, and Jesus saying He is about to come. The saints are raptured as He descends and the gathered, evil armies destroyed in that descent with ALL the saints, those raised and those changed: Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Notice in verse 16:21 the verse no longer adds "and they repented not." The time of repentance is over, Christ has come with His saints and the millennial reign begins. Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
None of these bowls have anything to do with the church. The pretrib argument that the church won't be in the tribulation because they are not meant for wrath is a useless defense BECAUSE THE BOWLS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM even if they are present. In fact, the saints find themselves smack-dab in the middle of the outpouring of God's wrath in the person of Christ because they return with Him when He pours out that wrath after the first six bowls:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
REV 19:14 AND THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN.
REV 19:15 AND OUT OF HIS MOUTH GOETH A SHARP SWORD, THAT WITH IT HE SHOULD SMITE THE NATIONS: AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON: AND HE TREADETH THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
The pretribulation doctrine absolutely destroys this glorious picture of the completion of the salvation of the saints!!!! We are changed to be like him and are changed incorruptible while the birds of the air pluck at the bodies of the unrepentant slain. This scene is further described in Zechariah: Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
REV 19:14 AND THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN.
REV 19:15 AND OUT OF HIS MOUTH GOETH A SHARP SWORD, THAT WITH IT HE SHOULD SMITE THE NATIONS: AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON: AND HE TREADETH THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
THE SAINTS OF GOD RETURNING WITH CHRIST NOW CHANGED TO BE LIKE HIM STAND WITH HIM IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THIS WRATH. The pretrib argument destroys the glory and power that is due Christ. You can respect men, but respected men have fostered great apostasy in the church because men don't read their bibles but look for implications or suppositions to prove their point and for someone else to do their thinking for them. This kind of garbage has been in the Church for decades and has increased and the devil is deceiving more men more than ever. The time is very short I would say.
There are BLOOD-BOUGHT saints in the trib who will see all of this wrath of God on the evil of this world and they will not be affected because they are in Christ. NO PRETRIBBER has been able to explain WITH SCRIPTURE why God pulls out the entire Church before the trib because that is His pattern and then saves some more to go through the trib. EXPLAIN WHY GOD BROKE HIS PATTERN BY SAVING MORE SAINTS TO GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION???
The answer is simple to those who have eyes to see.
http://www.velocity.net/~edju70/SaintsWrath.htm
I believe Christians are in the great tribulation, I don't see anyway around it. The Left Behind series is an example of pre-trib dealing with this fact. If the rapture or meeting the Lord in the air happens before the tribulation then you have to figure out who the Christians will be in the Tribulation. Who does God seal on Earth with a seal of protection? Revelation 9:4 Some believe that they are Jews and that God deals with the nation of Israel because it is the Jews that are sealed in Revelation. Revelation 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." It is possible if this verse is taken literally that Christians have been raptured in Revelation and are replaced on the Earth by the Jews who God is ministering to. I believe the number of Christians would be much higher than 144,000 at least I believe that there are more Christians now than that. It is possible that Christians are taken before the great tribulation. But it is not possible that there are no Christians during the Revelation because God seals His people before His wrath.