Total Depravity
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I don't operate on someone telling me its 'heresy'. Not afraid of the big boogeyman, whether its Pelagianism, unitarianism, oneness, trinitarianism, open theism, calvinism, all sorts of isms. They are all called heresy by someone, but I want to take a look at if they are biblical or not, don't really care if they are considered heresy. Justification by faith was considered heresy by the majority, the roman catholics, yet today its considered proper doctrine in the protestants circles.
Basically, everyone is a heretic, and believes in heresy, it just depends on who you ask. Reason I said im not sure yet is because I haven't looked into open theism enough yet to see if its unbiblical or not. I hope @PaulThomson will help me.
Basically, everyone is a heretic, and believes in heresy, it just depends on who you ask. Reason I said im not sure yet is because I haven't looked into open theism enough yet to see if its unbiblical or not. I hope @PaulThomson will help me.
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Mostly it seems that people have knee-jerk reactions to the word depravity without finding out
what is really meant by it. But also, quite a few are enamored with their idea that the natural man,
who is a slave to sin (taken captive to the devil's will) and hostile in his mind toward God, is free
in his will to choose to love and believe in God without God doing some work in us first. Some
go so far as to say that God not enabling everyone exactly the same makes God unjust and they
agree with those who say that God is a tyrant who kidnaps people against their will. I have
described what I believe is meant to be conveyed by total depravity here (<= link to post) .
Depravity vs. Grace
what is really meant by it. But also, quite a few are enamored with their idea that the natural man,
who is a slave to sin (taken captive to the devil's will) and hostile in his mind toward God, is free
in his will to choose to love and believe in God without God doing some work in us first. Some
go so far as to say that God not enabling everyone exactly the same makes God unjust and they
agree with those who say that God is a tyrant who kidnaps people against their will. I have
described what I believe is meant to be conveyed by total depravity here (<= link to post) .
Depravity vs. Grace
Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
In this scripture Isaiah is stating that the Holy Spirit is the angel of God's (the Father's) presence. Where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is.
The Holy Spirit is referred to as an angel because it can be sent by the Father.
1Cor 3: 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. When Jesus went back to heaven to get glorified by the Father, He was given a spiritual body consisting of beings (the Church) who are baptized with the Holy Spirit. Each member receives a portal through which the Father through the Son and with the Son interact with those indwelt. Christ is the temple of the Father, and when we become the temple of the Son, we also become the temple of the Father. We become One with the Father and Son and share in the same love that they share. Our motivation changes from love of self to love of God first and everyone else (including ourselves) second.
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Besides Isaiah, and Psalms saying God knows the end from the beginning, we have Scripture telling us that everything is done, or complete. We are living out what has already, from the foundation of the Earth, been decreed.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
New King James Version
9 That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
New King James Version
9 That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
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Your assertion about what the Bible says isn't supported by the Bible text you are citing.
The thing that was (She-HaYaH: qal perfect) is the thing that is happening (She-YiHeyeH: Qal imperfect); and that which was done (She-Na"aShaH: Niphal perfect) is that which shall be done (She-Ye"aSheH: Niphal imperfect); and [there is] nothing new under the sun.
The Book of Ecclesiastes is an assessment of the world from a scientific materialist perspective. From that perspective the world goes through repetitive meaningless cycles. This is what the verse is about. It is not saying that everything that will be was determined from the beginning of the world.
The thing that was (She-HaYaH: qal perfect) is the thing that is happening (She-YiHeyeH: Qal imperfect); and that which was done (She-Na"aShaH: Niphal perfect) is that which shall be done (She-Ye"aSheH: Niphal imperfect); and [there is] nothing new under the sun.
The Book of Ecclesiastes is an assessment of the world from a scientific materialist perspective. From that perspective the world goes through repetitive meaningless cycles. This is what the verse is about. It is not saying that everything that will be was determined from the beginning of the world.
It does NOT just mean from a materialistic, scientific processes perspective. It also describes, in great detail, humanity's fultility apart from Him.
The whole argument that God does not know the future negates HUGE portions of prophetic Scripture.
If we SOLELY look at the future predictions and fulfillments of Jesus i don't see how a believing Christian can think God doesn't know the future.
Here's just a few:
1 .He Will Be Betrayed by One of His Disciples: Judas Iscariot
2. Peter Would Deny Him Three Times That Very Night
3. His Resurrection from the Dead on the Third Day
4. Predicted the destruction of Jerusalem
The list goes on and on.
Do you believe Jesus knew the future?
Kind of an important belief.
The whole argument that God does not know the future negates HUGE portions of prophetic Scripture.
If we SOLELY look at the future predictions and fulfillments of Jesus i don't see how a believing Christian can think God doesn't know the future.
Here's just a few:
1 .He Will Be Betrayed by One of His Disciples: Judas Iscariot
2. Peter Would Deny Him Three Times That Very Night
3. His Resurrection from the Dead on the Third Day
4. Predicted the destruction of Jerusalem
The list goes on and on.
Do you believe Jesus knew the future?
Kind of an important belief.
I know the future to some degree. I can extrapolate the past and the status quo and predict a lot of things that will happen tomorrow, next week, next year. There are cycles that occur in the world that when one recognises them allows one to predict aspects of the future, as the Ecclesiasites passage just cited says. God sees all and knows all the past and present, so His power to see patterns and cycles and predict from them is greater. Being able to predict the future does not prove exhaustive foreknowledge. All your examples of foreknowledge -
1 .He Will Be Betrayed by One of His Disciples: Judas Iscariot
2. Peter Would Deny Him Three Times That Very Night
3. His Resurrection from the Dead on the Third Day
4. Predicted the destruction of Jerusalem -
can be easily explained by God's exhaustive past and present knowledge and His ability to do whatever He wants to do.
A bunch of fulfilled predictions does not require or prove exhaustive foreknowledge.
1 .He Will Be Betrayed by One of His Disciples: Judas Iscariot
2. Peter Would Deny Him Three Times That Very Night
3. His Resurrection from the Dead on the Third Day
4. Predicted the destruction of Jerusalem -
can be easily explained by God's exhaustive past and present knowledge and His ability to do whatever He wants to do.
A bunch of fulfilled predictions does not require or prove exhaustive foreknowledge.
Since you guys are trying to understand God from a human perspective, how about my rationalization of what is really going on.
Question: How can the Father know everything (past, present, and future), create out of nothing, can do anything, etc.
Rationalized Answer: Our reality is in the mind of the Father. Jesus said that in the Father's house there are many mansions. He is talking about many realities. There is nothing nonsensical about God's understanding of Himself that is given to man. To say that He knows and can do all things because He is God, is true, but it does not explain how it can be possible. What do you, brothers and sisters, think is really going on? Do you have any other explanation? I know a brother who says that God is beyond our understanding, but I believe that understanding can only come through the Holy Spirit (a portal through which the Father and Son can reside in the being indwelt).
John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Matt 11: 27 All things are delivered unto me by my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, except the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him (through the Holy Spirit).
Question: How can the Father know everything (past, present, and future), create out of nothing, can do anything, etc.
Rationalized Answer: Our reality is in the mind of the Father. Jesus said that in the Father's house there are many mansions. He is talking about many realities. There is nothing nonsensical about God's understanding of Himself that is given to man. To say that He knows and can do all things because He is God, is true, but it does not explain how it can be possible. What do you, brothers and sisters, think is really going on? Do you have any other explanation? I know a brother who says that God is beyond our understanding, but I believe that understanding can only come through the Holy Spirit (a portal through which the Father and Son can reside in the being indwelt).
John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Matt 11: 27 All things are delivered unto me by my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, except the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him (through the Holy Spirit).
Wow!
Minimizing the Lord's abilities, while claiming similar ones. I'm seriously getting a little worried about you.
So God didn't know the very minute the cock crowed the 3rd time as Peter was delivering his 3rd denial, God MADE that rooster crow just then!
This hole is getting deeper and deeper.
Minimizing the Lord's abilities, while claiming similar ones. I'm seriously getting a little worried about you.
So God didn't know the very minute the cock crowed the 3rd time as Peter was delivering his 3rd denial, God MADE that rooster crow just then!
This hole is getting deeper and deeper.
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Are you saying you have no ability to predict anything future? Why do you go to work in the morning. Are you not predicting there will be a job there for you to do and a wage at the end of the week/month/fortnight?
Do you think God needed to know the exact time the cock would crow in order for Him to be able to make that prediction? and He could not possibly use His omnipotence to silence every crow until Peter had denied Him sufficient times, and then make a crow crow? Whose God is smaller?
Do you think God needed to know the exact time the cock would crow in order for Him to be able to make that prediction? and He could not possibly use His omnipotence to silence every crow until Peter had denied Him sufficient times, and then make a crow crow? Whose God is smaller?
Chapter and verse, please.
Oh, wait... this is just another example of you adding to Scripture.
A bunch of predictions? You are calling prophecy predictions now?
Prophecy is of Divine origin. Perhaps you should learn what that means.
Jesus fulfilled hundreds of OT prophecies. Some say it was over three hundred (300+).
The chance that anyone might have fulfilled just eight prophecies is 1 in 1017 (1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000).
Oh, wait... this is just another example of you adding to Scripture.
A bunch of predictions? You are calling prophecy predictions now?
Prophecy is of Divine origin. Perhaps you should learn what that means.
Jesus fulfilled hundreds of OT prophecies. Some say it was over three hundred (300+).
The chance that anyone might have fulfilled just eight prophecies is 1 in 1017 (1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000).
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Ecclesiastes 1: 13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.