“In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”

homwardbound · Sunday at 10:37 AM

The three are one
As an Egg is one with three parts to the egg
A white, yoke and shell
White= Holy Spirit of God
Yoke = God himself
Shell= Body of Jesus the only perfect flesh to ever walk this earth

Who took on the sin of the world, upon himself for us the people to be reconciled (Forgiven) in by his done work on that cross. ready for the next believer in the done work for them by Son to them, gets given the Born again life from Father of Son.

Another way to see this
Water has three forms
Ice and steam. We can see this in cold, or heat
Water = Father
Cold = Ice
Heat= steam

Please be either cold or hot, over being Luke warm
Choose to believe God does love you in risen Son for you or not? Thank you
We, the people have a body, Soul and Spirit, the three make one body
The Spirit of God died in the first Adam who ate from that tree in "Unbelief" to God
The Spirit now returns alive in those that believe and eat on the tree of Jesus's sacrifice for them to be made alive in the risen Son, given them from Father to them. Those that will not stop belief, no matter what troubles come on them and no matter how long it might take to see this truth

Colossians 1:21-23
New International Version

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present youholy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Pilgrimshope · Sunday at 11:20 AM

Romans34 said:

“Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God . . ." - [אֱלֹהִ֑ים] Elohim (plural) - three or more.”

look how the beggining is revealed later

“In the beginning God created ( singular ) the heaven and the earth.

And the Spirit of God ( Gods spirit singular ) moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said,( Gods word ) Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Here’s what I meant about how it’s revealed compare genesis there to John here

“In the beginning was the Word, ( singular ) and the Word was with God, ( implies more than one someone is with him ) and the Word was God.( but they are one and the same )

The same was in the beginning with God.

(now we look at when he came to earth )

And the Word was made flesh, ( he in heaven was made flesh on earth now the plural is starting to make sense ) and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”

All things were made by him; ( singular the one who created all things in the beginning God created )

and without him ( singular ) was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; ( singular ) and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, ( singular he made ) and the world knew him not.( singular )
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats the concept God created two realms heaven and earth . He was in heaven his dwelling and then he became a man to also rule the earth it’s not two people it’s one God manifest in two realms of creation heaven and earth

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: ( three titles ) and these three are one. ( but one person in heaven )

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”( same thing on earth manifest in mankind )
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:7-8‬ ‭

The holy spirit is his spirit the son is the father manifest in the flesh of man like mankind was made to be originally

God created man by making a body and then breathing a living spirit into him and then man was complete a living soul

God is a spirit in heaven , who became flesh and blood man , in order to give us the spirit of tbat man of God the son

the full image of our one God is the father in heaven son on earth and spirit in our hearts

he is one or he is complete or even fully manifest now

“For in him ( singular ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” (In one body or one person )
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s why Jesus is so important he is the creator in genesis one who came to save his creation becoming a man like we are and overcoming like we couldn’t before

homwardbound · Sunday at 2:24 PM

Pilgrimshope said:

“Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God . . ." - [אֱלֹהִ֑ים] Elohim (plural) - three or more.”

look how the beggining is revealed later

“In the beginning God created ( singular ) the heaven and the earth.

And the Spirit of God ( Gods spirit singular ) moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said,( Gods word ) Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Here’s what I meant about how it’s revealed compare genesis there to John here

“In the beginning was the Word, ( singular ) and the Word was with God, ( implies more than one someone is with him ) and the Word was God.( but they are one and the same )

The same was in the beginning with God.

(now we look at when he came to earth )

And the Word was made flesh, ( he in heaven was made flesh on earth now the plural is starting to make sense ) and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”

All things were made by him; ( singular the one who created all things in the beginning God created )

and without him ( singular ) was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; ( singular ) and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, ( singular he made ) and the world knew him not.( singular )
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats the concept God created two realms heaven and earth . He was in heaven his dwelling and then he became a man to also rule the earth it’s not two people it’s one God manifest in two realms of creation heaven and earth

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: ( three titles ) and these three are one. ( but one person in heaven )

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”( same thing on earth manifest in mankind )
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:7-8‬ ‭

The holy spirit is his spirit the son is the father manifest in the flesh of man like mankind was made to be originally

God created man by making a body and then breathing a living spirit into him and then man was complete a living soul

God is a spirit in heaven , who became flesh and blood man , in order to give us the spirit of tbat man of God the son

the full image of our one God is the father in heaven son on earth and spirit in our hearts

he is one or he is complete or even fully manifest now

“For in him ( singular ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” (In one body or one person )
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s why Jesus is so important he is the creator in genesis one who came to save his creation becoming a man like we are and overcoming like we couldn’t before

Informative, thank you, clear to me

BillG · Sunday at 2:33 PM

Nehemiah6 said:

Point taken.

For some reason I couldn't quote the post from the poster so I copied and pasted.
I assumed you knowing me that I am a trinitarian but also that I responded to a post you questioning the OP views as wrong.

Pleased accept my apology.

Pilgrimshope · Sunday at 3:30 PM

homwardbound said:

Yes scripture is able to say alot to us if we are willing to hear consider genesis 1:1-4 the beginning of the ot

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-4‬

Now look at the first few verses of John

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So you have ot

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. “

And you have nt referring back to that with revelation

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him”

Old Testament

“God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good:”

New Testament revelation of Jesus in the gospel

“In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”( v 9 )

Old Testament

“And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.”

New Testament revelation of the gospel

“In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”

The nt is a revelation and fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy it’s what those physical things of creation meant on a spiritual level . It’s also true in prophecy it also fits the themes like this one about darkness and light

(A prophecy later about Jesus )

“The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

…For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:2, 6-8‬ ‭

later on it’s fulfilled when our lord comes forth

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then it’s revealed in full the light of the world and how darkness doesn’t grasp or relate to it

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

throughout scripture we find these ot promises of light and nt revelations of Christ our light and hope of life

The Bible is really edifying if we take this perspective

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬
‭
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:24‬ ‭

ot is prophetic nt is that being fulfilled it interprets it’s own self nt is the spiritual aspect ot is the physical flesh aspect the two covenants correspond the law is carnal over the flesh , the gospel is spiritual and leads us from the heart overcoming the flesh

DJT_47 · Sunday at 3:38 PM

"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" really means 'by the authority of' as does "in the name of Jesus Christ". And, when you carefully study the various conversions as recorded in the book of Acts, you'll see that no one said either phrase prior to a believer's baptism. The only time something was said or required to be said was in Acts 8 by the Ethiopian, and added Acts 22, in the conversion of Saul (Paul), and in both cases, it was the believer that was told and or did say something, NOT, the one performing the baptism.

In Acts 8, the Ethiopian eunuch confirmed his belief in Jesus, verbally to Stephen, whi h is consistent with the requirement of Romans 10:9, and in Acts 22, Paul was told to "call on the name of the Lord".

Once a person was taught Christ and believed, they were simply immersed without any words spoken by the baptizer, i.e., reciting either one of the 2 aforementioned phrases. Neither phrase was ever recorded as being spoken by the baptizer prior to immersion of a believer.

homwardbound · Sunday at 5:50 PM

Pilgrimshope said:

Yes scripture is able to say alot to us if we are willing to hear consider genesis 1:1-4 the beginning of the ot

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-4‬

Now look at the first few verses of John

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So you have ot

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. “

And you have nt referring back to that with revelation

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him”

Old Testament

“God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good:”

New Testament revelation of Jesus in the gospel

“In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”( v 9 )

Old Testament

“And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.”

New Testament revelation of the gospel

“In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”

The nt is a revelation and fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy it’s what those physical things of creation meant on a spiritual level . It’s also true in prophecy it also fits the themes like this one about darkness and light

(A prophecy later about Jesus )

“The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

…For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:2, 6-8‬ ‭

later on it’s fulfilled when our lord comes forth

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then it’s revealed in full the light of the world and how darkness doesn’t grasp or relate to it

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

throughout scripture we find these ot promises of light and nt revelations of Christ our light and hope of life

The Bible is really edifying if we take this perspective

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬
‭
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:24‬ ‭

ot is prophetic nt is that being fulfilled it interprets it’s own self nt is the spiritual aspect ot is the physical flesh aspect the two covenants correspond the law is carnal over the flesh , the gospel is spiritual and leads us from the heart overcoming the flesh

couple additions about God in the OT. being Elohim
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
It was not time fro Christ yet
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

homwardbound · Sunday at 5:55 PM

DJT_47 said:

God, who knows who believes God as man does not. yet can and claims knows, when in truth God really knows the heart of each person, whether or not which are sincere and which are not sincere.
And Paul said he glories in both, whether whoever was sincere or not, Yashua, Jesus is being preached = Hallelujah!

SonJudgment · Sunday at 6:14 PM

Seems like a fallacious argument made via ad ignorantium. As long as the trinity doctrine is understood if a baptism is done just in the name of Jesus then that is acceptable, likewise if a baptism is done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost that is also acceptable. It seems a lot of groups try to attack the trinity doctrine but this is going to be a big problem for them since not only is the trinity doctrine explicit in the scriptures but it is also implicit throughout the scriptures. Even if they argue one verse is changed or not, the trinity doctrine comes from a fullness of the reading of the whole Bible and one would have to argue against the entirety of the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments to try to void it.

Cameron143 · Sunday at 6:22 PM

SonJudgment said:

Seems like a fallacious argument made via ad ignorantium. As long as the trinity doctrine is understood if a baptism is done just in the name of Jesus then that is acceptable, likewise if a baptism is done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost that is also acceptable. It seems a lot of groups try to attack the trinity doctrine but this is going to be a big problem for them since not only is the trinity doctrine explicit in the scriptures but it is also implicit throughout the scriptures. Even if they argue one verse is changed or not, the trinity doctrine comes from a fullness of the reading of the whole Bible and one would have to argue against the entirety of the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments to try to void it.

Now we just need to find out the proper temperature of the water in the baptistry and we are set.

UnoiAmarah · Sunday at 7:48 PM

homwardbound said:

A particle of water cannot be liquid, solid and gas at the same time; however, the dogma of trinity is not that there one God that manifests in three different forms, but rather that are three different personages who are wholly and distinctly God.

RR · Sunday at 8:17 PM

Nehemiah6 said:

Scholars such as F. C. Conybeare1 have claimed that the Trinitarian baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19 was not original to the text of Matthew. (F.C. Conybeare, "The Eusebian Form of the Text of Mt. 28:19," ZNW 2 (1901): 275-88.)

Here's a treatise you may want to look at: The Change of the Baptismal Formula in Matthew 28:19

A Commentary on Matthew 28:19

Here are some quotes from Eusebius

Proof of the Gospel (the Demonstratio Evangelica), 300-336 AD
Book III, Chapter 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157

“But while the disciples of Jesus were most likely either saying thus, or thinking thus, the master solved their difficulties, by the addition of one phrase, saying they should triumph “In my name.” And the power of His name being so great, that the apostle says: “God has given him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,” He shewed the virtue of the power in His Name concealed from the crowd when He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all the nations in my name.” He also most accurately forecasts the future when He says: “for this gospel must first be preached to all the world, for a witness to all nations.”

Book III, Chapter 6, 132 (a), p. 152

With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” …

Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159

I am irresistibly forced to retrace my steps, and search for their cause, and to confess that they could only have succeeded in their daring venture, by a power more divine, and more strong than man’s and by the co-operation of Him Who said to them; “Make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

Book IX, Chapter 11, 445 (c), p. 175

And He bids His own disciples after their rejection, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

Here are some Bible Footnotes and References Regarding Matthew 28:19

The Jerusalem Bible, 1966

It may be that this formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the liturgical usage established later in the primitive community. It will be remembered that the Acts speak of baptizing “in the name of Jesus.”

New Revised Standard Version

Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity…

James Moffett’s New Testament Translation

It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing “in the name of Jesus.”

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637

“Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus.”

The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275

“It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but…a later liturgical addition.”

A Dictionary of Christ and the Gospels, J. Hastings, 1906, page 170

It is doubted whether the explicit injunction of Matt. 28:19 can be accepted as uttered by Jesus. …But the Trinitarian formula in the mouth of Jesus is certainly unexpected.

Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Volume 3, page 365

“Baptism was changed from the name of Jesus to words Father, Son & Holy Ghost in 2nd Century.”

The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 1, 1992, page 585

“The historical riddle is not solved by Matthew 28:19, since, according to a wide scholarly consensus, it is not an authentic saying of Jesus”

The Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible, 1962, page 351

Matthew 28:19 “… has been disputed on textual grounds, but in the opinion of many scholars, the words may still be regarded as part of the true text of Matthew. There is, however, grave doubt whether thy may be the ipsissima verba of Jesus. The evidence of Acts 2:38; 10:48 (cf. 8:16; 19:5), supported by Gal. 3:27; Rom 6:3, suggest that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, but “in the name of Jesus Christ” or “in the name of the Lord Jesus.” This is difficult to reconcile with the specific instructions of the verse at the end of Matthew.”

The Dictionary of the Bible, 1947, page 83

“It has been customary to trace the institution of the practice (of baptism) to the words of Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19. But the authenticity of this passage has been challenged on historical as well as on textual grounds. It must be acknowledged that the formula of the threefold name, which is here enjoined, does not appear to have been employed by the primitive Church”.

RR · Sunday at 8:18 PM

Nehemiah6 said:

Scholars such as F. C. Conybeare1 have claimed that the Trinitarian baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19 was not original to the text of Matthew. (F.C. Conybeare, "The Eusebian Form of the Text of Mt. 28:19," ZNW 2 (1901): 275-88.)

Here's a treatise you may want to look at: The Change of the Baptismal Formula in Matthew 28:19

A Commentary on Matthew 28:19

Here are some quotes from Eusebius

Proof of the Gospel (the Demonstratio Evangelica), 300-336 AD
Book III, Chapter 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157

“But while the disciples of Jesus were most likely either saying thus, or thinking thus, the master solved their difficulties, by the addition of one phrase, saying they should triumph “In my name.” And the power of His name being so great, that the apostle says: “God has given him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,” He shewed the virtue of the power in His Name concealed from the crowd when He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all the nations in my name.” He also most accurately forecasts the future when He says: “for this gospel must first be preached to all the world, for a witness to all nations.”

Book III, Chapter 6, 132 (a), p. 152

With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” …

Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159

I am irresistibly forced to retrace my steps, and search for their cause, and to confess that they could only have succeeded in their daring venture, by a power more divine, and more strong than man’s and by the co-operation of Him Who said to them; “Make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

Book IX, Chapter 11, 445 (c), p. 175

And He bids His own disciples after their rejection, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

Here are some Bible Footnotes and References Regarding Matthew 28:19

The Jerusalem Bible, 1966

It may be that this formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the liturgical usage established later in the primitive community. It will be remembered that the Acts speak of baptizing “in the name of Jesus.”

New Revised Standard Version

Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity…

James Moffett’s New Testament Translation

It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing “in the name of Jesus.”

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637

“Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus.”

The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275

“It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but…a later liturgical addition.”

A Dictionary of Christ and the Gospels, J. Hastings, 1906, page 170

It is doubted whether the explicit injunction of Matt. 28:19 can be accepted as uttered by Jesus. …But the Trinitarian formula in the mouth of Jesus is certainly unexpected.

Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Volume 3, page 365

“Baptism was changed from the name of Jesus to words Father, Son & Holy Ghost in 2nd Century.”

The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 1, 1992, page 585

“The historical riddle is not solved by Matthew 28:19, since, according to a wide scholarly consensus, it is not an authentic saying of Jesus”

The Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible, 1962, page 351

Matthew 28:19 “… has been disputed on textual grounds, but in the opinion of many scholars, the words may still be regarded as part of the true text of Matthew. There is, however, grave doubt whether thy may be the ipsissima verba of Jesus. The evidence of Acts 2:38; 10:48 (cf. 8:16; 19:5), supported by Gal. 3:27; Rom 6:3, suggest that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, but “in the name of Jesus Christ” or “in the name of the Lord Jesus.” This is difficult to reconcile with the specific instructions of the verse at the end of Matthew.”

The Dictionary of the Bible, 1947, page 83

“It has been customary to trace the institution of the practice (of baptism) to the words of Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19. But the authenticity of this passage has been challenged on historical as well as on textual grounds. It must be acknowledged that the formula of the threefold name, which is here enjoined, does not appear to have been employed by the primitive Church”.

SonJudgment · Sunday at 8:47 PM

Still seems to be an argument ad ignorantium, or an argument from ignorance. They don't know that the words were changed and thereby they presume that they were, but there's not really evidence for this at all. It's not a new argument, but it is based in a fallacy and a presumption typically to attack the trinity doctrine. The problem with the scribes' arguments directly is the scribes have no evidence at all for their claim that the text was changed. The next problem they have is indirectly that they are skirting on the precipice of a very grave heresy by trying to undermine the trinity doctrine. Lastly even if we indulge their fallacious argument it becomes a moot point since as long as one understands the trinity doctrine which accurately reflects the Bible's teachings about God that if they are baptised either in the name of Jesus only or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost that their baptism is still valid.

DJT_47 · Monday at 7:44 AM

SonJudgment said:

Baptisms, immersion in water, are valid predicated upon belief in Jesus Christ and admission or confirmation of that belief by the one being baptized, without any words being recited by the one performing the baptism. As I pointed out in my response above, there are no biblical records of anyone performing a baptism saying "in the name of--------". The confirmation of belief in the Lord by the one being immersed is sufficient.

homwardbound · Monday at 8:27 AM

UnoiAmarah said:

The analogy was only a physical analogy, for a spiritual reality, if one cannot understand physical analogy, how will one understand spiritual realities, that people do not fathom

Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Father, Son, Holy Ghost, =1
then times 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 continues to equal Won in Father and Son, thanks for your view as well

homwardbound · Monday at 8:28 AM

SonJudgment said:

There were Ten Lepers, healed by Jesus, and only one came back to him. Jesus said to that one, now you are whole
Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

SonJudgment · Monday at 1:04 PM

DJT_47 said:

I would agree to that if they understand the trinity doctrine. Obviously the verse of the topic itself bluntly states it. One also has to keep in mind that the trinity doctrine is essential to Christianity because it accurately describes the Bible's outline of God and Jesus' role in the Godhead. If someone rejects the trinity doctrine they are rejecting God and also rejecting the true Jesus; so what is the point then of their baptism? The answer is there is no real point.

homwardbound said:

Perhaps the parable of the seeds from the same chapter is more applicable to the topic.

Omegatime · Tuesday at 7:30 AM

In the Name of the Father, Son, and H. S. means to me the Lord Yeshua is in three ages and ministry. We are now in the age of the Spirit when the Lord no longer walks among us, and the Son's, about three years, but the age and ministry of the Father is the Old Testament.

Wansvic · Tuesday at 8:25 AM

DJT_47 said:

"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" really means 'by the authority of' as does "in the name of Jesus Christ". And, when you carefully study the various conversions as recorded in the book of Acts, you'll see that no one said either phrase prior to a believer's baptism. The only time something was said or required to be said was in Acts 8 by the Ethiopian, and added Acts 22, in the conversion of Saul (Paul), and in both cases, it was the believer that was told and or did say something, NOT, the one performing the baptism.

In Acts 8, the Ethiopian eunuch confirmed his belief in Jesus, verbally to Stephen, whi h is consistent with the requirement of Romans 10:9, and in Acts 22, Paul was told to "call on the name of the Lord".

Once a person was taught Christ and believed, they were simply immersed without any words spoken by the baptizer, i.e., reciting either one of the 2 aforementioned phrases. Neither phrase was ever recorded as being spoken by the baptizer prior to immersion of a believer.

Calling upon the name of the Lord=invoking the name upon entrance into covenant:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/calling-on-the-name-of-the-lord.215717/

“In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Active member

Well-known member

Junior Member

Member

Member

Active member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member