Does anyone know of....

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,012
1,935
113
I'm not suggesting that man isn't alive naturally and doesn't have use of his faculties. Neither am I suggesting that the Christian life is not an interactive relationship between Christ and the believer. But fallen man is at enmity with God, walks contrary to His ways, and finds the gospel to be foolishness. In addition, Jesus says of the Christian that apart from Him they can do nothing. So I find it a fair question to ask how does one go from their fallen estate to a saved estate apart from Christ. What happens in and to an individual that the gospel that was once anathema is now good news? Did they just wake up one day and change all that was formerly true of them? Is that possible?

Does not add up to cannot believe, it it did God would not ask us to do it.

Easy Peasy.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
57,722
27,221
113
Does not add up to cannot believe, it it did God would not ask us to do it.

Easy Peasy.
God commands a lot of things people discovered they could not do. Ever read the book of Acts?

My goodness. You speak as if there was no need of Jesus whatsoever.

Just brush aside the fact that the devil has taken people captive to his will.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,764
5,843
113
62
Natural man does not have to overcome (presupposition).... the natural man is BORN with the moral ability when presented with the GOD's Spirit wrought power and truth in the Gospel message to respond in belief or deny.
Really? The gospel is not foolishness to him? He is not at enmity with God? He does not act contrary to God? When did he overcome his fallen estate?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,012
1,935
113
Really? The gospel is not foolishness to him? He is not at enmity with God? He does not act contrary to God? When did he overcome his fallen estate?
Is he BORN believing the Gospel is foolishness can you find that in scripture?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,764
5,843
113
62
Does not add up to cannot believe, it it did God would not ask us to do it.

Easy Peasy.
Jesus commands you to love one another as He has loved us. When did you ever do this apart from Him? As a Christian you cannot keep the commandments without Him. Yet, somehow unbelievers are capable of doing so apart from Him?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,012
1,935
113
Jesus commands you to love one another as He has loved us. When did you ever do this apart from Him? As a Christian you cannot keep the commandments without Him. Yet, somehow unbelievers are capable of doing so apart from Him?
Can we just stay with soteriology please.
 

SonJudgment

Active member
Jun 25, 2024
243
115
43
What of the need to be born again and be reconciled to God?
What need of reconciliation if nothing is broken to begin with?
Well again as it pertains to the 2 OP questions if they do that then the answer is going to still be no to both the questions by reason that they will have renounced their doctrine, taken responsibility for their sins, repented, and confessed their sins and been forgiven by Christ. In essence they will have forsaken Calvinism and become a Christian at which point they could not longer assert they are not the chosen few while simultaneously asserting their inevitable damnation.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,012
1,935
113
Is he born believing? Then it is foolishness to him.

Ahh the old twisty..... lol,

... I stated he is not born UNABLE to believe. It is not possible to believe something until you have been told it, do better there Cameron.

Waiting for the scripture.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,012
1,935
113
In brief, the OP is somewhat of a genius, and it's a fun logic game.
Interesting post.

Yes the system does seem to inherent logical flaws, often the reason why people leave the system.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
57,722
27,221
113
Natural man does not have to overcome (presupposition).... the natural man is BORN with the moral ability when
presented with the GOD's Spirit wrought power and truth in the Gospel message to respond in belief or deny.

Romans 8:6-7
I am sure you have some way to but-but-but this to deny what it says...
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,764
5,843
113
62
Ahh the old twisty..... lol,

... I stated he is not born UNABLE to believe. It is not possible to believe something until you have been told it, do better there Cameron.

Waiting for the scripture.
That is the scripture. All unbelievers believe the gospel to be foolish. It is a part of their fallen estate. One of many things that preclude their believing.

It's not a matter of understanding the gospel. They can understand the gospel message. In fact, they must first understand it to reject it. But because they are at enmity with God and walk contrary to His ways, it is always foolishness to him.
 

SonJudgment

Active member
Jun 25, 2024
243
115
43
Interesting post.

Yes the system does seem to inherent logical flaws, often the reason why people leave the system.
Well it seems to me leaving their system in favor of joining Christianity is actually the ideal outcome, but then we will depart from the OP topic too far into a whole other thread.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,012
1,935
113
That is the scripture. All unbelievers believe the gospel to be foolish. It is a part of their fallen estate. One of many things that preclude their believing.

It's not a matter of understanding the gospel. They can understand the gospel message. In fact, they must first understand it to reject it. But because they are at enmity with God and walk contrary to His ways, it is always foolishness to him.
Yes I know the schema well, does not make it true/biblical and it definitely not supported by scripture.

Jesus clearly states believe/receive Him, He is not the author of false hope, I am sad you think He is.

Why some are saved and others are not, at least @BillyBob and others on here just plainly state it God did not choose them.

They do not try to justify it, they just accept it, it is what it is, God enables some and not others.
That is the logical outcome it cannot be denied.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,012
1,935
113
Well it seems to me leaving their system in favor of joining Christianity is actually the ideal outcome, but then we will depart from the OP topic too far into a whole other thread.
People say it is not about TULIP, it is about the connection/bond which the doctrine creates, the doctrine is just a means to an end.
I can see it now.

Yes it would be ideal.