IF the Spirit Dwells In You...

[Pilgrimshope]

Word games. Biblically the Holy Spirit IN the disciples is recorded at John 20:22 making them the FIRST "Born again Christians".

THEN Jesus said: "hang around Jerusalem until you are "Endued (externally clothed) with POWER from on high". THAT happened to all of 'em at Acts 2:4.

OLD TESTAMENT individuals (Samson, Isaiah, Daniel, etc. received the SAME Enduement - WITHOUT BEING "born again" and indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

SO John 20:22, and Acts 2:4 are two DIFFERENT situations.

“until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: and, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:2-5‬ ‭

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The holt ghost couldn’t be given i til Jesus ascended to heaven and shed forth his own spirit to the people after pentocost Peter explained what’s happened

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

jesus had to ascend to heaven first

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This had to happen

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

before this could happen

Jesus hath God raised up, …. being by the right hand of God exalted, having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”


this doesn’t say anyone received the holt ghost it’s just Jesus saying it it would soon after happen at pentocost

“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It doesn’t say they received it until pentocost then it says they received it and explains he’s now in heaven and shed forth his spirit to believers as he promised in the gospel


“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:7, 12-13, 28, 33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[vassal]

Here are the key verses from the King James Version (KJV):

John 7:37-39 (KJV):

“In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.”​

Luke 11:13 (KJV):

“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”​

John 14:15-17 (KJV):

“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”​

Blessings.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

he dwelleth with you

Nothing new there: that's been pretty much the average man's association
with God since before the Flood.

● Gen 6:3 . .Then Yahweh said: My spirit shall not strive with man forever
_

 

[Wansvic]

Standard Cessationist paradigm.

Please explain.

 

[Wansvic]

This will tip over allot of carts so to speak by the way you said it. Just look at how it has unfolded so far. First let me say no to "Jesus confirmed". No where in Luke 11 did Christ confirmed the Holy Ghost is not received upon belief. Luke 11;13 is a promise to ever believer that asks, God can not lie. John B I baptise with water but HE will baptise with the holy spirit. Peter said repent be baptised and then you shall receive the gift of the holy Spirit. Same with the 120+ yeah there were women and others yet all got it. The day before this were they saved and already had the holy spirit? What was that promise? Only for the 120+ get it?

To cut out all I wrote. I go with what works. By that I mean I just blindly believe. Sorry that is not the best word yet its what I do. I look back and oh sorry but so many things He said shown me I try to look back and see what I did. All I can see is.. I just read what He said and believed. This was when there was no Internet no cell phones no computers nothing. Can't I just read and just believe what so ever I desire or these signs shall follow them that believe or if I love Him I keep His words/commands? Can't I read Cor 13 and Phil and Eph and just believe and do it? Its like I hmm very short.. I had to be mom and dad. So I always dropped them off picked them up. One day at my sons school the Principle saw me look out the door .. kind a crying said " I think its harder for you then him". Like my wife.. I never ever ever get tired of seeing them being with them.

Anyway one day waiting at school to pick them up I was reading about this man that found something and sold everything. I said lord I read this so many times whats this treasure? He said "I am the treasure". Is this true? Well I never really searched on it. Never looked to see what someone else said. Well if we seek Him with our hearts and I truly believe if I am off in any area He will aways tell me. Father in JESUS name change me 1st not you the reader the hearer but me.

So I read Luke 11 13 as if I never heard anyone say what it really means. I read John 3:16-17 the same way. God the Father of our lord Jesus Christ is real. So when I ask for the holy Spirit .. its a promise to any believer. I don't care if someone says I already have when I 1st got saved. He never said it like that.. no where in His word. So if I believe there are signs that follow. I ask and He has always.. go for it.. pray seek ask Him if I am lying about anything. He always keeps His word. ANY promise I stand on He did it already. Faith with out works. All I am trying to say is.. get out of His way. Do you want His truth or what I say or anyone else? Then just read it and believe. Your His child He will not lead you the wrong way.

we all get things wrong but.. we knows those that are His by the LOVE they have one for another. When it comes to faith and gifts and tongues.. wheres the "hey if you don't believe this praise GOD. You know Jesus as lord and thats what matters". Don't believe a word I say. Change me 1st Father

I agree with you that we should believe everything recorded in the Word. What I find, however is many believe what pastors or others tell them and do not check to see if what they are being told is actually in the Word.

Sadly telling people they received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed can keep them from ever actually having the experience. That is why I pointed out Jesus statement in Luke. Does it make sense that Jesus would tell people to ask for something they already have? (Luke 11:13) Also, why would Paul ask, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" (Acts 19:2)

I share this in hopes it will prompt people to study what the Bible actually says about receiving the Holy Ghost. Many are being told something that is in opposition to scripture. And according to Paul, receiving the Holy Ghost is not optional. The experience is essential in order to become a child of God.

Consider the events of Pentecost. They reveal what is necessary to obtain the NT rebirth. (Acts 2:3-42) What was established at Pentecost, is seen in each and every detailed conversion account thereafter; to the Jew first, and then the Gentile. Everyone regardless of nationality is to believe in Jesus, repent, submit to water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and receive the Holy Ghost as well. (Acts 8:12-17, 10:43-48, 19:1-7) Although the sequence of the experiences differed, (which experience happened first, etc.) none of the requirements was excluded.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine..."

It is after experiencing the rebirth that children of God grow to maturity through the leading of the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Please explain.

It's the primary difference between the traditional paradigm, and the ("Full Gospel" / Pentecostal / Charismatic) paradigm.

Traditionally, it's believed that NOTHING HAPPENED in the upper room in terms of the Holy Spirit being ministered at John 20:22, - i.e. it was a "Prophetic statement", to the disciples there present, and that it ALL HAPPENED (the disciples were indwelled by the Holy Spirit at Acts 2:4). Subsequently the formalization of the BIBLE constituted "That Perfect" (1 Cor 13:10) eliminating the existence of the Gifts found in 1 Cor 12.

The "Full Gospel" version has the disciples INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit at John 20:22 when Jesus (God) Breathed on them - the immediate effect being an understanding of the Gospel they didn't have before (Luke 24:45). THEN subsequently receiving the external clothing of the Holy Spirit, enduing them with power for ministry at Acts 2:4 - the immediate effect being an evangelistic Windfall (Acts 2:41).

AND, of course "THAT PERFECT" (1 Cor 13:10) does not refer to the organization/publication of the Biblical Canon - consequently the "Charisma" of 1 cor 12 are still viable in 2024.

 

[Wansvic]

.


Nothing new there: that's been pretty much the average man's association
with God since before the Flood.

● Gen 6:3 . .Then Yahweh said: My spirit shall not strive with man forever
_

John 14:15-17 (KJV):
“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

Those who keep Jesus commandments will experience the NT rebirth.

Notice what's recorded in Luke. After Jesus ascended he through the Holy Ghost gave commandments to the apostles. (Acts 1:1-2) It was after Peter was indwelt by the Holy Spirit that he presented Jesus commandments relative to the NT rebirth: WHAT MUST WE DO? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The promise is for all. (Acts 2:2-42)

 

[Wansvic]

It's the primary difference between the traditional paradigm, and the ("Full Gospel" / Pentecostal / Charismatic) paradigm.

Traditionally, it's believed that NOTHING HAPPENED in the upper room in terms of the Holy Spirit being ministered at John 20:22, - i.e. it was a "Prophetic statement", to the disciples there present, and that it ALL HAPPENED (the disciples were indwelled by the Holy Spirit at Acts 2:4). Subsequently the formalization of the BIBLE constituted "That Perfect" (1 Cor 13:10) eliminating the existence of the Gifts found in 1 Cor 12.

The "Full Gospel" version has the disciples INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit at John 20:22 when Jesus (God) Breathed on them - the immediate effect being an understanding of the Gospel they didn't have before (Luke 24:45). THEN subsequently receiving the external clothing of the Holy Spirit, enduing them with power for ministry at Acts 2:4 - the immediate effect being an evangelistic Windfall (Acts 2:41).

AND, of course "THAT PERFECT" (1 Cor 13:10) does not refer to the organization/publication of the Biblical Canon - consequently the "Charisma" of 1 cor 12 are still viable in 2024.

Thank you for the clarification.

I am in agreement that Spiritual gifts have not been eliminated. Where I believe we differ is concerning when people actually receive the promised gift of the Holy Ghost.

What I see from scripture is that tongues initially flow when the Holy Ghost takes up residence in the body. (Acts 2:4, 10:45-46, 19:6, and Acts 8:17-18 where tongues are implied) It is the sign that indicates a person has received the promised GIFT; the Holy Ghost. Whereas the Spiritual gift of tongues that requires one such as yourself to interpret are gifts that not all are used to operate in.


Lastly, notice what's recorded in Luke. AFTER Jesus ascended he through the Holy Ghost gave commandments to the apostles. (Acts 1:1-2) It was after Peter was indwelt by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that he presented Jesus commandments relative to the NT rebirth: WHAT MUST WE DO? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The promise is for all. (Acts 2:2-42)

 

[Webers.Home]

.
Many years ago as a fledgling believer-- back around 1973 or so --I was
reading a passage in the 8th chapter of the book of Romans that goes like
this:

"You are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God
dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

At the time, it seemed reasonable to me that were someone inside my body
I should be able to tell; but I could not; and that made me nervous. So I
contacted the pastor of a conservative church in my area and shared my
concerns with him.

Well; he said-- in so many words --that the Spirit of Christ is supernatural,
and as such cannot be detected by means of our five natural senses of taste,
touch, sight, hearing, and smell.

You see; I was expecting the Spirit of Christ to have substance but spirit
has no substance; which is no doubt at least one of the reasons why people
can be influenced by demonic beings per Eph 2:1-2 and not know it.

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell
where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the
Spirit." (John 3:8)

In other words; I can't see the wind; but I know it's there by means of
its effects. The same can be said of the Spirit of Christ. I cannot detect it,
but 51 years have gone by since 1973 wherein I eventually came to know
his spirit is inside me by means of its effects. For some Christians Rom 8:11
is academic; for me it's been an experience.
_

 

[Burn1986]

Jesus confirmed the Holy Ghost is not received upon belief when He told people to ask the Heavenly Father for the Holy Ghost. (Luke 11:13)
Those Jesus spoke with were already believers; yet, they did not have the Holy Ghost. The account reveals there is discernable evidence when the experience occurs. Otherwise, how does a person know if they need to pray to receive the Holy Ghost?

The Samaritan account confirms this point. They knew they had not received the Holy Ghost when they believed, nor when they were water baptized. They actually received the Holy Ghost days later. (Acts 8:12-17)

Paul pointed out that receiving the Spirit was essential: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9) And scripture reveals tongues is the sign that accompanies the experience. (Acts 2:4-42, 10:43-48, 19:1-7)


Again, Jesus said the Heavenly Father will give the Holy Ghost/Spirit to all those who ask...
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)

So how did it go with you when you were saved and/or if you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit then or later?

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● 2Cor 13:5 . . Examine yourselves, whether you're in the faith; test your
own selves. Don't you know of your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in
you, unless you're all reprobates?

The only proof-positive way for individuals to know for sure whether Christ is
in them is by getting it from the horse's mouth.

● Rom 8:15 . .The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's
children.

The Greek word translated "testifies" means to corroborate; defined by
Webster's as: to support or help prove (a statement, theory, etc.) by
providing information or evidence.

This kind of support usually isn't public: it's private. In other words: it's one
on one, spirit to spirit, heart to heart. Needless to say then, this kind of
corroboration is supernatural rather than academic which is why Paul said to
test "your own selves" rather than testing others because it's on an individual
basis, i.e. no one but you and God together can do this for you.

Smokey the Bear says: Only you can prevent forest fires, whereas scripture
says: Only you can know whether Christ is in you.

* Quite a bit of delusion, self deception, and outright dishonesty goes on in
this area of Christianity and I'm afraid there's not much can be done about
it for now.
_

 

[Lamar]

If the Spirit dwells among you

You will know

How will you know?

 

[Wansvic]

So how did it go with you when you were saved and/or if you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit then or later?

Although some disagree, the baptism of the Holy Ghost is the experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost and is essential for the salvation of those living in the NT as seen in Acts 2:4-42, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7.

I was brought up hearing about Jesus’ love and sacrifice. During a church service, when I was about 12, I prayed and received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. As an adult, I was water baptized "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost." It was years later when I became aware that the apostles administered all water baptisms in the name of the Lord Jesus that I was re-baptized. It was at that point my spiritual eyes were opened; I could "see" (understand) scriptures with greater clarity than in the past. (John 3:3)

About 10 years later, God used me to speak a message in tongues that was interpreted by someone else. I had not been seeking the Spiritual gift. However, while praising God in the worship service He decided to flow through me and speak a message to the congregation.

As I was praising God I could feel His presence stronger than in times past; I sensed something was definitely different but had no idea what was going on. As I continued worshipping, someone to my left began to speak in tongues. I remember thinking Lord if that was what you wanted me to do I would have done that. Immediately the individual stopped speaking. I felt what can only be described as an internal explosion; a feeling of complete fullness that my body could not contain. To my utter dismay the fullness began pouring out in the form of tongues. There I was, normally the shy, quiet one, loudly proclaiming half of a message that was afterward interpreted. I say half, because the interpretation was separated by a short pause. God had the other person start the message and after the pause He concluded it through me.

On the drive home, the incident kept running over, and over in my mind. I was amazed at what happened. I questioned the Lord about the explosive feeling. His answer was, “I consumed the sacrifice.” I wasn’t sure what that meant at first. He revealed it was my willingness that prompted Him to use me to speak His message.

I might add that I frequently speak in tongues during personal prayer in fellowship with God. But, I have only been used to operate in the Spiritual gift of tongues on that one occasion. And I can tell you the manifestation of tongues differed tremendously.

Even though I wasn’t seeking proof, I thank God for confirming through the experience what I already knew was revealed in the word. God uses the manifestation of tongues for different purposes. First, it is the sign that the Holy Ghost has come to dwell inside one’s body and applies to all believers; whereas, not all operate in the Spiritual gift of tongues that requires the gift of interpretation for the edification of others.

 

[Omegatime]

How will you know?

------------------------------------------------
Well, I can feel his presence and answers to prayers. Twice in my 7 decades of life he spoke to me thru the SPIRIT and both times He quoted scripture

 

[Lamar]

------------------------------------------------
Well, I can feel his presence and answers to prayers. Twice in my 7 decades of life he spoke to me thru the SPIRIT and both times He quoted scripture

Okay but how did you know it was God?

 

[Omegatime]

Okay but how did you know it was God?

Oh, you will know because he speaks with great authority. Speaking only of the times he spoke to me I was woke up and if I told you all the details I dont think you would believe me. Some say this doesnt happen but i know the truth

 

[Wansvic]

.
● 2Cor 13:5 . . Examine yourselves, whether you're in the faith; test your
own selves. Don't you know of your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in
you, unless you're all reprobates?

The only proof-positive way for individuals to know for sure whether Christ is
in them is by getting it from the horse's mouth.

● Rom 8:15 . .The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's
children.

The Greek word translated "testifies" means to corroborate; defined by
Webster's as: to support or help prove (a statement, theory, etc.) by
providing information or evidence.

This kind of support usually isn't public: it's private. In other words: it's one
on one, spirit to spirit, heart to heart. Needless to say then, this kind of
corroboration is supernatural rather than academic which is why Paul said to
test "your own selves" rather than testing others because it's on an individual
basis, i.e. no one but you and God together can do this for you.

Smokey the Bear says: Only you can prevent forest fires, whereas scripture
says: Only you can know whether Christ is in you.

* Quite a bit of delusion, self deception, and outright dishonesty goes on in
this area of Christianity and I'm afraid there's not much can be done about
it for now.
_

Scripture describes evidence of the presence of the Holy Ghost. Tongues as the sign of the initial indwelling. And fruit of the Spirit thereafter. Both are visible.

Note:
There was no second guessing when all those in the upper room had the experience. (Acts 2:4, 33)
Philip and the Samaritans knew they had NOT received the Holy Ghost. How did they know this? (Acts 8)
Paul indicated believers know if they have received the Holy Ghost. And the account reveals when the experience became a reality for the 12 individuals of Ephesus. (Acts 19)

Remember, truth concerning any topic in the Bible is confirmed by at least 2-3 accounts. The above meets that criteria.

 

[Lamar]

Scripture describes evidence of the presence of the Holy Ghost. Tongues as the sign of the initial indwelling. And fruit of the Spirit thereafter. Both are visible.

Note:
There was no second guessing when all those in the upper room had the experience. (Acts 2:4, 33)
Philip and the Samaritans knew they had NOT received the Holy Ghost. How did they know this? (Acts 8)
Paul indicated believers know if they have received the Holy Ghost. And the account reveals when the experience became a reality for the 12 individuals of Ephesus. (Acts 19)

Remember, truth concerning any topic in the Bible is confirmed by at least 2-3 accounts. The above meets that criteria.

How do you know your tongues is the same as during the New Testament?

 

[Wansvic]

How do you know your tongues is the same as during the New Testament?

I trust the Word of God.

It was Jesus who said, "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:11-13)

All detailed accounts reveal speaking in an unknown tongue was the sign that accompanied the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:4, 33, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7)

The Word also says out of the believer's belly shall flow living waters. (John 7:38-39) Meaning the Holy Spirit will flow out from those He resides within.

 

[Lamar]

I trust the Word of God.

How can anyone know that they are truly "trusting" the Word of God and not simply trusting in their own understanding of the Word of God? What makes you think that your understanding of the Bible is correct?

It was Jesus who said, "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:11-13)

All detailed accounts reveal speaking in an unknown tongue was the sign that accompanied the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:4, 33, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7)

The Word also says out of the believer's belly shall flow living waters. (John 7:38-39) Meaning the Holy Spirit will flow out from those He resides within.

Again, how do you know you are speaking in a unknown tongues? If the "tongues" you are speaking of are simply glossolalia would this not mean you are in error?