Loss of salvation???

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
782
116
43
To believe God consciously or not
Did Son take away all sin on that cross or not? John 19:30
Is Son risen? God is not God of the dead!
Believe God, receive truth from God not self or anyone else, and be new in, love and mercy to all also
God is faithful, the first born flesh is not, so God did what God did by Son once for us all
Hebrews 10:10 all are reconciled 2 Cor 5:17-20 now time to go to God personally from you in you and talk to God freely, since by God, God took away all sin but Unbelief to him in his risen Son for us in full belief, to be made new in God's Spirit and Truth, the Holy Spirit leading us, so we can rest from any worldly self works under Laws. Which does not mean one will take this grace for granted, actually will appreciate it and n be it, in it by God's done work of Son for them to just love
Hebrews 7:11-12, ask God for the new heart in Ezekiel 36:26
I accept the need to "believe God consciously" and the need to "not take His grace for granted" as conditions for grace but the words of Jesus in the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant show the ability for grace to be revoked in other ways.

Grace has conditions. We may debate on what the conditions are but not the existence of conditions.
 
Oct 24, 2012
15,860
301
83
God's condition.

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

But He took back the grace given to His servant.
Therefore He says:


“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

Matthew 18:21-35
God's condition.

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

But He took back the grace given to His servant.
Therefore He says:


“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

Matthew 18:21-35
Therefore it was righteously taken back, right?
‘seeing this, since by God all are reconciled, forgiven through Son’s willing death for everyone on that cross in his shed blood. Hebrews 10:10, 2 Cor. 5:17-20
do you now see, if I do not see in thanksgiving and praise, I am reconciled and do not respond to others the same way. Then I would see I do not appreciate this gift and still deserve to be condemned. do you, or anyone else reading here see this too?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
1,959
269
83
God's condition.

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

But He took back the grace given to His servant.
Therefore He says:


“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

Matthew 18:21-35
That has nothing to do with grace. I do not think you know a correct description of grace. You're not alone in that issue.
Many simply emote and produce their own meaning for grace.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
1,959
269
83
I accept the need to "believe God consciously" and the need to "not take His grace for granted" as conditions for grace but the words of Jesus in the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant show the ability for grace to be revoked in other ways.

Grace has conditions. We may debate on what the conditions are but not the existence of conditions.

Tell us what, to you, grace is .
 
Oct 24, 2012
15,860
301
83
I accept the need to "believe God consciously" and the need to "not take His grace for granted" as conditions for grace but the words of Jesus in the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant show the ability for grace to be revoked in other ways.

Grace has conditions. We may debate on what the conditions are but not the existence of conditions.
Yes, condition, to believe God in risen Son, where all sin reconciled for you, me and all others to appreciate and rest in thanksgiving and praise.
are you a person having trouble in forgiving another or others? Go to Father of risen Son in prayer and ask, you will be led with such understanding, and so willingly, surprisingly do as led.
that is not easy, yet when do it, as know from God within you, and do it. I can’t t explain the freedom this you will see. I know what it has done for me, and it was not easy
as I hear you already know to do as you have heard to do. So go do it.
love to you, from Risen Son and Father, the Holy Spirit of God
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
782
116
43
That has nothing to do with grace.
Nothing? The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant has everything to do with the grace of God.

Who do you think gave grace to the servant? Who do you think took the grace away?

The whole parable is about the grace of God!!!

If you cannot see the grace of God in this parable your understanding of God's grace is warped.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
782
116
43
Tell us what, to you, grace is .
This is my understanding of grace.

God's grace is usually defined as undeserved favor. Grace cannot be earned; it is something that is freely given. We count on God's grace and the bridge he built in our relationship with him. Bible verses about grace abound. From the foundation of the Old Testament, we know that grace is a part of God's character.

Now what is yours?
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
782
116
43
Yes, condition, to believe God in risen Son, where all sin reconciled for you, me and all others to appreciate and rest in thanksgiving and praise.
are you a person having trouble in forgiving another or others? Go to Father of risen Son in prayer and ask, you will be led with such understanding, and so willingly, surprisingly do as led.
that is not easy, yet when do it, as know from God within you, and do it. I can’t t explain the freedom this you will see. I know what it has done for me, and it was not easy
as I hear you already know to do as you have heard to do. So go do it.
love to you, from Risen Son and Father, the Holy Spirit of God
I am struggling to fully understand what you are saying.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
695
135
43
67
Darwin, NT
God's condition.

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

But He took back the grace given to His servant.
Therefore He says:


“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

Matthew 18:21-35
That is not a parable of God taking back His grace but of grace being rejected and the consequences that flow from it. The Cross stands for the forgiveness of all men's sins forever, yet those who end up in the lake of fire are not there because God took back the effectiveness of the Cross for some but because they rejected the gift freely given by grace.

Mercy flows from grace. The unforgiving servant was lacking mercy because he rejected grace.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
782
116
43
That is not a parable of God taking back His grace but of grace being rejected and the consequences that flow from it. The Cross stands for the forgiveness of all men's sins forever, yet those who end up in the lake of fire are not there because God took back the effectiveness of the Cross for some but because they rejected the gift freely given by grace.

Mercy flows from grace. The unforgiving servant was lacking mercy because he rejected grace.
Who in the parable (as you have claimed) rejected the grace of God???
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
1,959
269
83
Nothing? The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant has everything to do with the grace of God.
You're bollixing and conflating God's forgiveness for being God's grace.
They are not one and the same things.

Here... this might help you.​
But he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may
rest on me. " 2 Corinthians 12:9​


Grace is God's enabling power that is given to those who humbly acknowledge their powerlessness.
Grace is not God's forgiveness.

.........
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
1,959
269
83
This is my understanding of grace.

God's grace is usually defined as undeserved favor. Grace cannot be earned; it is something that is freely given. We count on God's grace and the bridge he built in our relationship with him. Bible verses about grace abound. From the foundation of the Old Testament, we know that grace is a part of God's character.

Now what is yours?
Grace is God's divine enabling power that He grants to humble believers, those who realize that they are incapable in themselves of being what God desires them to be.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain.
On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the
grace of God that is with me. “ 1 Corinthians 15:10​

Grace is God's enabling power being provided for us, to do the works He has assigned for us to do!

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Ephesians 2:10​

Grace is not about forgiveness.

Grace is about God's provision to enable us with the needed power to do as He desires for us to do.

Grace and peace .............
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
782
116
43
You're bollixing and conflating God's forgiveness for being God's grace.
They are not one and the same things.

Here... this might help you.​
But he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may
rest on me. " 2 Corinthians 12:9​


Grace is God's enabling power that is given to those who humbly acknowledge their powerlessness.
Grace is not God's forgiveness.

.........
What utter theological gobbledygook.

If God's forgiveness can be taken away ( the unforgiving servant) then His grace is by default taken away.

No forgiveness equals no grace.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
1,959
269
83
What utter theological gobbledygook.

If God's forgiveness can be taken away ( the unforgiving servant) then His grace is by default taken away.

No forgiveness equals no grace.
But, forgiveness is not grace...

Every ice cube has freezing temperature.
But freezing temperature is not an ice cube.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,197
1,102
113
New Zealand
It always comes up in these threads of the accusation ...'if I'm always saved I can do whatever I want'

This is ignoring God's discipline of His children. It's thinking carnally.

Wouldn't you be amazed at being given unconditional love through the free gift of salvation?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
1,959
269
83
It always comes up in these threads of the accusation ...'if I'm always saved I can do whatever I want'
1 John 3:9

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them;
they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."
1 John 3:9

Now… How does God make sure that a believer will not be able to continue to sin?
"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray
and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.
There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that." 1 John 5:16​

Some jerks, after reading 1 John 5:16, become delusional, and think they can not sin anymore. Which is sin to think such a way!

One way or another, believers will not be able to continue to sin - if that was what they were wishing to do.
"There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that."

God makes sure they can not continue in sin, the hard way!

The easy way would be, 1 John 1:9.

In Christ .......
 
Feb 12, 2024
695
135
43
67
Darwin, NT
Who in the parable (as you have claimed) rejected the grace of God???
I stated quite clearly in my post who rejected grace. Here it is again.

Mercy flows from grace. The unforgiving servant was lacking mercy because he rejected grace.
Does that make it clearer for you?
 
Oct 24, 2012
15,860
301
83
1 John 3:9

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them;
they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."
1 John 3:9

Now… How does God make sure that a believer will not be able to continue to sin?
"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray
and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.
There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that." 1 John 5:16​

Some jerks, after reading 1 John 5:16, become delusional, and think they can not sin anymore. Which is sin to think such a way!

One way or another, believers will not be able to continue to sin - if that was what they were wishing to do.
"There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that."

God makes sure they can not continue in sin, the hard way!

The easy way would be, 1 John 1:9.

In Christ .......
Thank you Genez, for your posts, as we each are growing up from day one when we each decided to believe God in risen Son for us, that begins with being reconciled 2 Cor 5:17-20
Sin unto death is unbelief in risen Son, making the conscious decision not to believe God in this done work, at least for me.
Anything anyone considers sin, is sin to them Romans 14:23, there is only one sin left, that is unbelief to God in risen Son Jesus for them. Unbelief is not a sin until one decides to not believe God consciously, ultimately that is between God and that person only.
That is the last call, John 1:29, behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world
He went willingly to that cross for us all the people there then, prior to Jesus and after Jesus
It is done John 19:30. he said in Matt 5:17 hew came here to fulfill, not destroy the Law and Prophets, to fulfill
He did it as said in John 19:30
Romans 14:23
Whoever doubts, leaves themselves unsaved, by doubt(s), even though by God in risen Son has saved them since one, anyone believes God. If doubt, one does not get established, being in doubt.
God took it all for us the people on that cross, that is finished John 19:30 for us to believe it John 1:29 and ask Father for the new life offered in the risen Son Jesus, John 10:10 last part. Those that believe will not take advantage of this gift and spend it on their own pleasures
Believe, receive and see differently, than did in first birth, now in second birth
I need God, who says God's grace is sufficient for us the people in 2 Cor 12:7-10
I have found out, by trying not to sin or just having a sin conscious, keeps me in sin, learning the difference of under Law and upholding Law. The Law of have to, better or else attitudes, or the Law of Liberty. Romans 7:10
Where one that gets the Law of Liberty will see certain things not good for them, and will quit them willingly between God and them, being friends, not a tyrant as religion produces in people as if God is a tyrant, not true
God loves us all 1 John 2:1-12, always has from day one in the first Adam. God did not kill Adam or Eve. the eating they did in unbelief they did die eventually as everyone else has since. As all flesh dies, might as well reckon self dead right now to the first birth of flesh and blood Romans 6:12, trust God to take over and do new through us in love and mercy to all
God did not come here to save flesh, rather our Souls, time to stand in belief to the finished work of God, done by Son for us all, to be given new life in the risen Christ, in God's Spirit and Truth John 4:23-24, for me this be what I see and God knows whom is who and what is what, thank you again friend in the risen Son unto God Father of his done work for us to be in by continued belief to his love and mercy given us to stand in, at least me
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
1,959
269
83
Thank you Genez, for your posts, as we each are growing up from day one when we each decided to believe God in risen Son for us, that begins with being reconciled 2 Cor 5:17-20
Sin unto death is unbelief in risen Son, making the conscious decision not to believe God in this done work, at least for me.
Anything anyone considers sin, is sin to them Romans 14:23, there is only one sin left, that is unbelief to God in risen Son Jesus for them. Unbelief is not a sin until one decides to not believe God consciously, ultimately that is between God and that person only.
That is the last call, John 1:29, behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world
He went willingly to that cross for us all the people there then, prior to Jesus and after Jesus
It is done John 19:30. he said in Matt 5:17 hew came here to fulfill, not destroy the Law and Prophets, to fulfill
He did it as said in John 19:30
Romans 14:23
Whoever doubts, leaves themselves unsaved, by doubt(s), even though by God in risen Son has saved them since one, anyone believes God. If doubt, one does not get established, being in doubt.
God took it all for us the people on that cross, that is finished John 19:30 for us to believe it John 1:29 and ask Father for the new life offered in the risen Son Jesus, John 10:10 last part. Those that believe will not take advantage of this gift and spend it on their own pleasures
Believe, receive and see differently, than did in first birth, now in second birth
I need God, who says God's grace is sufficient for us the people in 2 Cor 12:7-10
I have found out, by trying not to sin or just having a sin conscious, keeps me in sin, learning the difference of under Law and upholding Law. The Law of have to, better or else attitudes, or the Law of Liberty. Romans 7:10
Where one that gets the Law of Liberty will see certain things not good for them, and will quit them willingly between God and them, being friends, not a tyrant as religion produces in people as if God is a tyrant, not true
God loves us all 1 John 2:1-12, always has from day one in the first Adam. God did not kill Adam or Eve. the eating they did in unbelief they did die eventually as everyone else has since. As all flesh dies, might as well reckon self dead right now to the first birth of flesh and blood Romans 6:12, trust God to take over and do new through us in love and mercy to all
God did not come here to save flesh, rather our Souls, time to stand in belief to the finished work of God, done by Son for us all, to be given new life in the risen Christ, in God's Spirit and Truth John 4:23-24, for me this be what I see and God knows whom is who and what is what, thank you again friend in the risen Son unto God Father of his done work for us to be in by continued belief to his love and mercy given us to stand in, at least me
Sin onto death is for believers!

Here!

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray
and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.

Brother and sister in the Lord, means saved.

Paul spoke of believers dying the sin onto death!


But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself,
not discerning the Lord’s body.
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. " 1 Corinthians 11:28-30​


"Sleep" referred to believers who had passed on into the next life. They died the sin onto death.

For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself.

Sin onto death....