Are all works bad?

Beckworth · Sep 12, 2024

I don’t believe that is what John 6 is saying, do you?

Beckworth · Sep 12, 2024

Here's the thing about works, we can only do works that please the Father AFTER we are saved. Until we see "our way" for the trash path to death that it is and we are granted repentance, a gift from God, and born again (spiritually resurrected and reconnected to His Spirit) then we CANNOT please Him at all. No matter how many "works" we do on our own they're filthy rags to Him until we are changed by Him in truth, by grace through faith in Jesus. So bad works would be anything we do before being born again and "good works" are any we do after we have been transformed by His power. Not a hard concept at all for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, and foolishness for those who are perishing.

That would make a person saved before they “believed” since Jesus said “faith is a work.” That can’t be true.

Magenta · Sep 12, 2024

Galatians 5:4 and 6b ~ You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. All that matters is faith, expressed through love.

Inquisitor · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

Most religious people think ALL works are bad. Actually, the Bible talks about both BAD works and GOOD works. Let’s start with the bad works first.
BAD WORKS
EPHESIANS 2:9- “…not of works lest anyone should BOAST.” What are “boastful” works? I suppose those are works that originate with man—his works—that he thinks up himself. They can’t be from God because Luke 17:10 tells us that when we have done what God commands us to do, we cannot boast about it because we have only done OUR DUTY.
GALATIONS 2:16- says, “ We are not justified by “WORKS OF THE LAW.” These are also bad works, in the sense that they will not save us. The entire book of Galations is mostly talking about these kind of works.
Galations 5:19- another kind of bad works is WORKS OF THE FLESH.

GOOD WORKS
JAMES 2:14:-26- talks about many different kinds of “GOOD WORKS.” Some were charitable, such as giving food and clothes to the needy;but also such GOOD WORKS as obeying the commands of God. Those are called GOOD WORKS and he uses the example of Abraham offering his son Issac as a sacrifice. So obeying God’s commandments are GOOD WORKS that James says we are JUSTIFIED by these kinds of works. It’s very important to see that knowing what KIND OF WORKS makes all the difference in understanding the scriptures properly. Because in one scripture, the Bible says we are NOT justified by “works” (Ephesians 2:9) and in another scripture the Bible says we ARE justified by works ( James 2:24). Someone could easily argue that the Bible contradicts itself. Not so. It is imperative that we understand WHAT KIND OF WORKS are being discussed in each passage.

One other kind of GOOD WORKS that saves us are the WORKS OF GOD in John 6:28-29. Jesus’s disciples said to Him, “ What must we do to WORK. the WORKS OF GOD? This verse clearly tells us that there ARE things we must do. The disciples knew this and Jesus confirms it. Jesus said, “This is the WORK OF GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE in Him whom He sent.” Jesus says that believing is a WORK!! But it is one of the GOOD works that are from God and are part of our salvation. There are other scriptures that tell us that faith is a work—one is in 2 Thess. 1:11–“ THE WORK OF FAITH…”. The crucial question here is…do you believe the Bible? Do you believe what God said? If Faith is a work, and I don’t doubt it because Jesus says that it is, then that makes “repentance a WORK OF GOD, too and “CONFESSION” IS A WORK OF GOD; and “BAPTISM” is a WORK OF GOD. They are “works” of God because they originated with God—not man—and they are all commanded by God. They are HIS works—not man’s works. Isn’t this exactly what Jesus asked the Jews in Mark 11:30? He said, “John’s baptism—was it from heaven or from men?” They would not answer. They knew if they said, “From heaven.” He would say then why haven’t you obeyed it? Well, if John’s baptism was from heaven, how much more the baptism of Jesus the Messiah!

So, to the followers of John Calvin who want to say that we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS—actuallly, we. ARE! We are saved by DOING the WORKS OF GOD. because Jesus said FAITH IS A WORK and we all agree that faith is necessary to be saved. And to those same people who say baptism is a WORK, you are right!! It is a WORK OF GOD—it came from God-not man, and it was commanded by God (Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:48). So when you say. “ we are not saved by works.” It is important that you identify which works. Because ABSOLUTELY we are NOT saved by “boastful works” or “works of the old law of Moses” and certainly not by “works of the flesh. BUT We ARE Isaved by the WORKS OF GOD.

ROMANS 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Inquisitor · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

Most religious people think ALL works are bad. Actually, the Bible talks about both BAD works and GOOD works. Let’s start with the bad works first.
BAD WORKS
EPHESIANS 2:9- “…not of works lest anyone should BOAST.” What are “boastful” works? I suppose those are works that originate with man—his works—that he thinks up himself. They can’t be from God because Luke 17:10 tells us that when we have done what God commands us to do, we cannot boast about it because we have only done OUR DUTY.
GALATIONS 2:16- says, “ We are not justified by “WORKS OF THE LAW.” These are also bad works, in the sense that they will not save us. The entire book of Galations is mostly talking about these kind of works.
Galations 5:19- another kind of bad works is WORKS OF THE FLESH.

GOOD WORKS
JAMES 2:14:-26- talks about many different kinds of “GOOD WORKS.” Some were charitable, such as giving food and clothes to the needy;but also such GOOD WORKS as obeying the commands of God. Those are called GOOD WORKS and he uses the example of Abraham offering his son Issac as a sacrifice. So obeying God’s commandments are GOOD WORKS that James says we are JUSTIFIED by these kinds of works. It’s very important to see that knowing what KIND OF WORKS makes all the difference in understanding the scriptures properly. Because in one scripture, the Bible says we are NOT justified by “works” (Ephesians 2:9) and in another scripture the Bible says we ARE justified by works ( James 2:24). Someone could easily argue that the Bible contradicts itself. Not so. It is imperative that we understand WHAT KIND OF WORKS are being discussed in each passage.

One other kind of GOOD WORKS that saves us are the WORKS OF GOD in John 6:28-29. Jesus’s disciples said to Him, “ What must we do to WORK. the WORKS OF GOD? This verse clearly tells us that there ARE things we must do. The disciples knew this and Jesus confirms it. Jesus said, “This is the WORK OF GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE in Him whom He sent.” Jesus says that believing is a WORK!! But it is one of the GOOD works that are from God and are part of our salvation. There are other scriptures that tell us that faith is a work—one is in 2 Thess. 1:11–“ THE WORK OF FAITH…”. The crucial question here is…do you believe the Bible? Do you believe what God said? If Faith is a work, and I don’t doubt it because Jesus says that it is, then that makes “repentance a WORK OF GOD, too and “CONFESSION” IS A WORK OF GOD; and “BAPTISM” is a WORK OF GOD. They are “works” of God because they originated with God—not man—and they are all commanded by God. They are HIS works—not man’s works. Isn’t this exactly what Jesus asked the Jews in Mark 11:30? He said, “John’s baptism—was it from heaven or from men?” They would not answer. They knew if they said, “From heaven.” He would say then why haven’t you obeyed it? Well, if John’s baptism was from heaven, how much more the baptism of Jesus the Messiah!

So, to the followers of John Calvin who want to say that we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS—actuallly, we. ARE! We are saved by DOING the WORKS OF GOD. because Jesus said FAITH IS A WORK and we all agree that faith is necessary to be saved. And to those same people who say baptism is a WORK, you are right!! It is a WORK OF GOD—it came from God-not man, and it was commanded by God (Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:48). So when you say. “ we are not saved by works.” It is important that you identify which works. Because ABSOLUTELY we are NOT saved by “boastful works” or “works of the old law of Moses” and certainly not by “works of the flesh. BUT We ARE Isaved by the WORKS OF GOD.

Ephesians 2:8 actually says we are, 'saved by grace through faith', not saved by faith.

The majority of Christians do not understand this important distinction.

Because salvation is by grace so then salvation is therefore a free gift.

James said that good works perfect our faith. Yet we are saved by grace first.

You must understand the power of the gospel centered on Christ alone.

The reconciliation that Christ offered up to His father is what saves us.

This is the primary doctrine of Christianity.

posthuman · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

i certainly do mean it.

i can't imagine what it's like to believe you could lose your salvation at any moment and that you can never get it back again when you do.
the horror and hopelessness of it moves me to compassion for you; you must have no peace at all!

so i really do hope you are still saved today, and every day!
and i wish you the best of luck maintaining that tenuous grip on the hem of His garment.

posthuman · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

yes.

the people who ask Him "what works should we do" do not believe Him, see v.36
they ask Him for signs, and they ask Him for bread, and they do not understand Who He is or what He is saying, and they do not believe in Him.

He tells them the work of God is that they believe in Him Whom God sent.

and He tells them they have seen Him but they still don't believe.

He tells them He will give His flesh and blood for them.
They neither understand nor believe Him, and they leave.

a generation asking for signs, for bread, for a list of works to do - who are in unbelief and depart from Him. that's who asks. that's who He tells, the work of God is that you believe in Christ, and that Christ will offer Himself as a propitiation to save whoever believes in Him from their sin.

this is absolutely teaching that the work of God saves and the work of man does not, and that we must believe in the works God has done for us.

Adstar · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

I have never heard any Christian say ALL works are bad... Actually i have never heard any religious person state that all works are bad..

Beckworth · Sep 12, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

If that was true, Wouldn’t that eliminate “faith” as part of our salvation; since Jesus said that “faith” is a WORK? It would surely be considered a GOOD work—not a bad one.

Beckworth · Sep 12, 2024

posthuman said:

What is important in this passage is NOT the people who are asking the question—but Jesus’s answer. His answer proves that faith is a work ( of God) and that it is something we must DO. Jesus only needs to say something one time for it to be true; but there are at least 2 other scriptures that say that FAITH IS A WORK. . 1 Thess. 1:3 and 1 Thess. 1:11. So many people believe that we can’t be saved by works. They lump all works together as bad. And many of those same people believe we don’t have to DO anything to be saved. Yes, Jesus has done everything we need to be saved. But the Bible clearly shows that there are things we must do also. This verse proves it and also Acts 9. Jesus told Saul ofcTarsus to “go into the city and there it will be told you what you MUST DO.” THE Philippians jailer asked “What must I DO to be saved.” And since he was a Roman gentile, Paul said BELIEVE. It was something he had to DO. Faith is a work. It is something we must DO. That’s the point.

Beckworth · Sep 12, 2024

Nicolas said:

2 things: I am not the one “painting faith as a work.” Those scriptures are in the Bible . God did that —not me. I am just trying to bring them to your attention.
And 2) like most Calvinists ( whether you are or not) you have inserted the word “ONLY”. in there where God did not use that word. You have made a declaration that FAITH IS THE ONLY WORK BY WHICH WE CAN BE SAVED”. For that to be true, you must have a passage in the Bible that says that. So where is your scripture? And please make sure that the word “ONLY” is in the verse, because just citing verses on “faith” does not prove that IT is the “ONLY” thing that saves us.

For example, 1Peter 3:21 is very plain and says that “baptism” saves us. I believe that —but you do not, because you have inserted a word “only” (which God did not say) into every verse that talks about faith. You may not do it by literally writing it in but you MENTALLY put it there. Like Ephesians 2:8-9. Yes, I believe that verse that says we are saved by Grace through faith. And YOU believe that verse—but the difference between us is that you have added an extra word—you believe we are saved “ONLY “ by grace through faith. And that is NOT what GOD has said.

You see, by just adding that one word that God did not put there, you are now making God’s word contradict itself— which God never does. Now, with the word “only” in all of the scriptures on Faith, we have a contradiction with 1 Peter 3:21, and with Roman’s 10:10 and with Acts 17:30. You see “ONLY” means just one thing and NOTHING ELSE. If I say you can ONLY have an apple for dessert that means you can’t have any thing else. That’s ALL. If you say we are ONLY saved by faith, then, repentance is eliminated, and so is confession and baptism. You are saying those things don’t save us, but the scriptures I have given you say that they do. So you are now contradicting God.

Beckworth · Sep 12, 2024

posthuman [QUOTE="posthuman said:

, post: 5362399, member: 170505"]justified before men,
but not before God.

see Romans 4:2[/QUOTE]

Ok. Let’s see Romans 4, but let’s examine the CONTEXT—that is, ALL of Roman’s 4 and 3also.
I See that Paul is talking to Jews who are still holding on to the old law of Moses. He is arguing in chapter 3 that it’s not the WORKS OF THE OLD JEWISH LAW that will justify them ; chapter 3:20-“ by the WORKS OF THE LAW no flesh shall be justified. He Is trying to convince them that it is Christ’s law of faith that will save them. 3:27 is important. Paul says Christ’s law of faith excludes “boasting.”Verse 28- “a man is justified by faith ( not “only”) apart from the WORKS OF THE LAW ( of Moses). Now we go right into chapter 4.2- If Abraham was justified by WORKS, he has something to boast about.” Refers back to 3:27. Judging from the CONTEXT of chapter 3 and 4 what are the “works” the Holy Spirit is talking about in verse 2? The works BOTH of these chapters are talking about are the “works” of the old Jewish law of Moses. Things like circumcision which he discusses in 4:9. So 4:2 says that Abraham was NOt JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE OLD JEWISH LAW OF MOSES. If he was, then he could @boast” as Paul says in 3:27-28.

To try to use this scripture-Romans 4:2- to prove that we are not saved by good works is not handling the word of God honestly, since it clearly is not talking about all works—but specifically about the works of the Old Testament law. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not know that.

Beckworth · Sep 12, 2024

Magenta said:

Yes, “boastful” works will not save us—as I said. But this is not a condemnation of ALL works—which is my point.

posthuman · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

... because the scripture literally says so, in more than one place.

so when Paul tells the believers in Thessaloniki that he remembers their "work of faith" - which is the fact that they believe the gospel - he isn't talking about them having accomplished salvation through works. this is the same Paul who said "by grace you have been saved, not of works, lest any man should boast" and he isn't giving contradictory messages.

that very gospel they believe is that Christ has performed the work necessary to save them, as Christ says to the unbelieving in John 6 - the thing they need to to be saved is to believe in Him.

our Salvation is not accomplished by what we do. it's accomplished by what we believe: that God has accomplished the works, and is at work in us because of our belief in Him.

posthuman · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

, post: 5362399, member: 170505"]justified before men,
but not before God.

see Romans 4:2

Ok. Let’s see Romans 4, but let’s examine the CONTEXT—that is, ALL of Roman’s 4 and 3also.
I See that Paul is talking to Jews who are still holding on to the old law of Moses. He is arguing in chapter 3 that it’s not the WORKS OF THE OLD JEWISH LAW that will justify them ; chapter 3:20-“ by the WORKS OF THE LAW no flesh shall be justified. He Is trying to convince them that it is Christ’s law of faith that will save them. 3:27 is important. Paul says Christ’s law of faith excludes “boasting.”Verse 28- “a man is justified by faith ( not “only”) apart from the WORKS OF THE LAW ( of Moses). Now we go right into chapter 4.2- If Abraham was justified by WORKS, he has something to boast about.” Refers back to 3:27. Judging from the CONTEXT of chapter 3 and 4 what are the “works” the Holy Spirit is talking about in verse 2? The works BOTH of these chapters are talking about are the “works” of the old Jewish law of Moses. Things like circumcision which he discusses in 4:9. So 4:2 says that Abraham was NOt JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE OLD JEWISH LAW OF MOSES. If he was, then he could @boast” as Paul says in 3:27-28.

To try to use this scripture-Romans 4:2- to prove that we are not saved by good works is not handling the word of God honestly, since it clearly is not talking about all works—but specifically about the works of the Old Testament law. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not know that.

Abraham was not under the law of Moses. that came 430 years later, see Galatians 3:17-19

so Romans 4:2 is definitely not talking about Deuteronomy when he says Abraham was declared righteous by his faith, not by his works. see Romans 4:3.

i think you have a lot more of Romans to read still, lol

Nicolas · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

I regret to inform you that you are completely wrong. Baptism does not save anyone just as no other work can save us. Just believe that Jesus is the son of God and that our sins are forgiven through his sacrifice on the cross, nothing more.
Baptism is simply an act that manifests before the eyes of men that we have been reborn and that we have been washed in the blood of the lamb, but it is not a requirement to be saved.

Tell me, was the thief who was next to Jesus at the crucifixion baptized? Not, right?? However, he was saved.

You are supporting your theory based on some verses that you have evidently misinterpreted and if this is a competition of verses, apart from Ephesians 2:8-9 there are about 20 that speak of salvation through faith alone, of which I'm going to mention some to you.

Let's start:

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I regret to inform you that you are completely wrong. Baptism does not save anyone just like any other work cant save us. Just believing that Jesus is the son of God and that our sins were forgiven through his sacrifice on the cross.
Tell me, was the thief who was next to Jesus during the crucifixion baptized? Not right? but nevertheless he was saved.

Baptism is nothing more than an action that represents our rebirth and that we have been washed in the blood of the lamb, it is a manifestation for the eyes of men, not a requirement to be saved.

You support your theory in a few verses that you have evidently misinterpreted, and if this is a competition of verses, apart from verses 2:8-9 there are about 20 that say that salvation is only through faith of which I mentioned some.

Let's start:

John 3:15-16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

James 5:15
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Acts 16:31
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

1 John 5:4
4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

John 3:36
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 5:24
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

And please, please, please, I am going to ask you in a very polite and friendly way, stop mixing me with Calvinists, or Lutherans, or with any other man that has said or said whatever. What they have done or said does not care to me. Unlike the "Papist" Catholics, the only man I adore, follow and believe in is Jesus, I don't care about the rest.

Magenta · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

Why do you feel you have to keep adding to what Scripture says?

posthuman · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 is not making a distinction between boastful/non-boastful works, and it isn't condemning works.

it's telling us God saves us, as opposed to what we 'do' saving us.

our faith doesn't condemn good works at all. i don't know where anyone gets that idea. it encourages good works.
but our faith is that our salvation is independent of good works, and produces good works by Gods work in us and through us.

this feels like it's just a useless semantic argument, because someone really really really wants to go to the 'not by works' thread and say 'yes, by works'

Magenta · Sep 12, 2024

posthuman said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 is not making a distinction between boastful/non-boastful works, and it isn't condemning works.

it's telling us God saves us, as opposed to what we 'do' saving us.

our faith doesn't condemn good works at all. i don't know where anyone gets that idea. it encourages good works.
but our faith is that our salvation is independent of good works, and produces good works by Gods work in us and through us.

this feels like it's just a useless semantic argument, because someone really really really wants to go to the 'not by works' thread and say 'yes, by works'

You are such a dear, dear.

Bob-Carabbio · Sep 12, 2024

Beckworth said:

Not true.

"Good works" aren't "Bad". They're just not salvific.

Are all works bad?

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