Gods will vs mans free will
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First of all, God did not plan eternal salvation, he purposed it. Paul is explaining to those that have been born of the Spirit
are different than those that do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
Paul does not direct his teaching to the natural man, knowing that they cannot receive the things of the Spirit.
Oh but the Calvinist say that this salvific indwelling only happens after Pentecost. What did you do switch teams?
The fact is this. ANYBODY can choose to believe when GOD CALLS. Anybody. And He is always calling.
Anybody can believe and enter into the covenant of life and peace.
Its FREELY available, and OPEN to anybody.
Whether it is righteous Abraham or doomed Canaanites or wretched Ninevites or a thief on a cross.
Gal 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Jon 3:5
So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Hear the epilogue to the entire Bible. THIS is the sum and total of the salvation message.
Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him ***take*** the water of life freely.
The fact is this. ANYBODY can choose to believe when GOD CALLS. Anybody. And He is always calling.
Anybody can believe and enter into the covenant of life and peace.
Its FREELY available, and OPEN to anybody.
Whether it is righteous Abraham or doomed Canaanites or wretched Ninevites or a thief on a cross.
Gal 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Jon 3:5
So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Hear the epilogue to the entire Bible. THIS is the sum and total of the salvation message.
Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him ***take*** the water of life freely.
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Something to be avoided at all costs. Why?
Insanity like this is why:
"Paul does not direct his teaching to the natural man, knowing that they cannot receive the things of the Spirit."
As if Paul's ministry is NOT meant as an appeal to the lost, an effective witness to the world, but only useless rhetoric to the already saved to the Calvinist chosenites.
There are innumerable passages that say otherwise. Endless passages. Both OT and NT.
Insanity like this is why:
"Paul does not direct his teaching to the natural man, knowing that they cannot receive the things of the Spirit."
As if Paul's ministry is NOT meant as an appeal to the lost, an effective witness to the world, but only useless rhetoric to the already saved to the Calvinist chosenites.
There are innumerable passages that say otherwise. Endless passages. Both OT and NT.
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Absolutely yes. "Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. Jesus knew Judas did not believe from the beginning, calling him an unclean devil and son of perdition, meaning doomed to destruction. No child of God is doomed to destruction.
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9
John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and
you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”
Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me
I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus
did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."
With thanks to @mailmandan .
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9
John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and
you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”
Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me
I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus
did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."
With thanks to @mailmandan .
Do you also think that Peter is a devil? (Matt 16:23)
@phil36 :
Here you go.
@rogerg said:
"Paul does not direct his teaching to the natural man, knowing that they cannot receive the things of the Spirit."
Col 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Tit 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Here you go.
@rogerg said:
"Paul does not direct his teaching to the natural man, knowing that they cannot receive the things of the Spirit."
Col 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Tit 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
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I have never read any of John Calvin's writings. I have heard other comments about him, and what I have heardabout his beliefs, some of them I do not agree with.
Matter of fact, I believe the scriptures prove themselves by their harmony, and they are my only source of reference, except for Strongs concordance.
As I have told you before, the only people that will respond to Jesus calling and come to him are those that his Father gave him (John 6:37)
With all due respect, I believe that the truth of Christ doctrine is found in the harmony of the scriptures.
When a person is born again the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is part of that new birth, and 2 Tim 2:13 says "if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself"
Believing is not the cause of our eternal deliverance.
I believe also that the scriptures teach us that we are not to try to judge who or who is not a child of God. Davidmade God angry by numbering Israel, his kingdom, which caused God to take the lives of thousands of them for his punishment.
Thanks for your post cv5.
Are you referring to what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 2:14 :-
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are v folly to him, and w he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
I am sure that Calvinists do not say that the gospel is not to be preached to all men. Or to put it your way or whoever said it "Paul does not direct his teaching to the natural man""
Would that not be hyper-Calvinism?
So this takes me back to my original question -
What is Calvinism?
Are you referring to what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 2:14 :-
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are v folly to him, and w he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
I am sure that Calvinists do not say that the gospel is not to be preached to all men. Or to put it your way or whoever said it "Paul does not direct his teaching to the natural man""
Would that not be hyper-Calvinism?
So this takes me back to my original question -
What is Calvinism?
God inspired scriptures were not written to all humanity, but were directed to his adopted children for instructing them as to how God wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth.
Two things that you have not been revealed the knowledge of are: 1. The "all men" quotes are directed to "all men under consideration in the context of the scripture". 2. you have no knowledge of eternal deliverance verses deliverances that God's children receive as they sojourn here on earth.
Calvinism has GOD CHOOSING to send everyone He "doesn't want" into the eternal lake of fire. By not choosing them for salvation.
God gets all the BLAME and none of the GLORY for true salvation. Because true salvation is not FORCED, coerced, nor imposed.
But in fact, God wills that every man be saved. However MEN CHOOSE to ***deny/turn down/not believe/not examine and prove*** the salvation offered and thereby JOIN their father Satan in the lake of fire. Of their own free will. MEN CHOOSE to damn themselves.
How do we know this? Reading Romans ch1 is how.
Do the Calvinists reject all of this? Yes they do. And consequently, God gets the blame for the damnation of men.
BTW, God ALSO has a will. He ALSO has freedom to do things. And God is FREE to abandon men to their lusts if He so chooses.
Is God at fault for abandoning men to their lusts? You tell me.
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because what may be known of God is manifest in THEM, for God has shown it to THEM.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, ***so that THEY are without excuse,***
21because, ***although THEY knew God***, THEY did not (CHOOSE TO) glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in THEIR thoughts, and THEIR foolish hearts were darkened.
22Professing to be wise, THEY became fools,
23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24***Therefore*** God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26***For this reason*** God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28And even as THEY did not ***like*** (to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not) to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32who, ***Knowing*** the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
God gets all the BLAME and none of the GLORY for true salvation. Because true salvation is not FORCED, coerced, nor imposed.
But in fact, God wills that every man be saved. However MEN CHOOSE to ***deny/turn down/not believe/not examine and prove*** the salvation offered and thereby JOIN their father Satan in the lake of fire. Of their own free will. MEN CHOOSE to damn themselves.
How do we know this? Reading Romans ch1 is how.
Do the Calvinists reject all of this? Yes they do. And consequently, God gets the blame for the damnation of men.
BTW, God ALSO has a will. He ALSO has freedom to do things. And God is FREE to abandon men to their lusts if He so chooses.
Is God at fault for abandoning men to their lusts? You tell me.
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because what may be known of God is manifest in THEM, for God has shown it to THEM.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, ***so that THEY are without excuse,***
21because, ***although THEY knew God***, THEY did not (CHOOSE TO) glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in THEIR thoughts, and THEIR foolish hearts were darkened.
22Professing to be wise, THEY became fools,
23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24***Therefore*** God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26***For this reason*** God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28And even as THEY did not ***like*** (to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not) to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32who, ***Knowing*** the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
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I do respect your dedication to study the scriptures, and do agree with a lot of your quotes, however I do think that you are missing out on some very comforting scriptures by not harmonizing them.
As you have stated that "all Israel is not of Israel" which is true with the meaning that all of the nation of Israel is not of Jacib, surnamed Israel by God, which is spiritual Israel that is made up of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9)
God blinded the eyes of most of spiritual Israel for turning away from and worshiping Idols, but left in the midst of them a remnant of an afflicted and poor people that shall trust in the name of the Lord (Zeph 13:11-13)
Most of those that are on this forum are part of spiritual Israel that are blinded to understanding the truths of Christ's doctrine, which leads to destruction.
Matt7:13-14 speaks of two gates. The wide gate that leads to destruction (blinded spiritual Israel, the lost sheep of the house of Israel) who are preaching and teaching false doctrines. The strait gate that leads to an abundant life of peace and comfort (the remnant of spiritual Israel who have been revealed the doctrine of Christ.
All of the people that go into these two gates are God's adopted children and have the promise of an inheritance of heaven.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 2:1-6 (KJV)
To obey this exhortation, you would have to pray for all men; because there is no clue here of how to extract "certain men" from all men in this context. The "all men" under consideration here is all men.
To obey this exhortation, you would have to pray for all men; because there is no clue here of how to extract "certain men" from all men in this context. The "all men" under consideration here is all men.
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