Please help me to respond to some of my non-trinitarian friends
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And never will be fully explained nor fully understood.
No created being will EVER have that capacity.
It is obvious from Scripture that Satan failed to understand.
Angels fallen and holy are watching Gods works and marveling. And they do not fully
comprehend Who God is, what They are doing or why. And they will never comprehend the Trinity either.
No created being will EVER have that capacity.
It is obvious from Scripture that Satan failed to understand.
Angels fallen and holy are watching Gods works and marveling. And they do not fully
comprehend Who God is, what They are doing or why. And they will never comprehend the Trinity either.
My friend says that you left out verse 15 which says, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;"
Christ is the image of the invisible God because the Father resides in the Son's being and the Son is perfectly obedient to the Father. The image is not the same as the original. Also, "the first-born of all creation" means that out of all creation, he was the first.
From post # 177:
2 Cor 11: 13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
My friend believes that the Father is the almighty God of all realities. Does the almighty God take orders? Does the almighty God allow himself to be sent ( take orders)? Can the almighty God in any way exhibit emotions since He controls everything and knows the future? God is full of love, but is just. Does the almighty God pray to himself? Does an almighty God have authority and power given to Him? The almighty God, the Father, has no beginning. Yet in John 1: 1 we are taken to a beginning. There are only two beings there because creation has not started. One is the Father and the other is His Son. One has no beginning and the other one does. Why are the words Father and Son used? The Father cannot be His own Son. Any son comes into existence after the father. There is more, but I'll stop here. All of this seems obvious and logical. Concerning 2 Cor 11: 13-14, Satan places himself equal or above God the Father. Might the trinity be his method or plan to ursup the Father's authority by having people place others equal to the Father? The Father created our reality through His Son because the Son was filled with the Father's Holy Spirit who is a portal through which the Father makes residence in the being indwelled. It is through the Holy Spirit that the Father communicates His will and empowers in order to fulfill it. The Father puts all things created under the Son's feet. That would make the Son Lord and God of all creation in our reality, but the Father is the One God of all, including His Son. I believe, worship, and pray to the same God that Jesus obeyed, worshipped, and prayed to which is the Father. The Father performed miracles through Jesus when Jesus was a human. He told his listeners that if they didn't believe his words, they should believe through his miracles that he was sent by God. Satan is the great deceiver and those deceived don't even know it.
Christ is the image of the invisible God because the Father resides in the Son's being and the Son is perfectly obedient to the Father. The image is not the same as the original. Also, "the first-born of all creation" means that out of all creation, he was the first.
From post # 177:
2 Cor 11: 13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
My friend believes that the Father is the almighty God of all realities. Does the almighty God take orders? Does the almighty God allow himself to be sent ( take orders)? Can the almighty God in any way exhibit emotions since He controls everything and knows the future? God is full of love, but is just. Does the almighty God pray to himself? Does an almighty God have authority and power given to Him? The almighty God, the Father, has no beginning. Yet in John 1: 1 we are taken to a beginning. There are only two beings there because creation has not started. One is the Father and the other is His Son. One has no beginning and the other one does. Why are the words Father and Son used? The Father cannot be His own Son. Any son comes into existence after the father. There is more, but I'll stop here. All of this seems obvious and logical. Concerning 2 Cor 11: 13-14, Satan places himself equal or above God the Father. Might the trinity be his method or plan to ursup the Father's authority by having people place others equal to the Father? The Father created our reality through His Son because the Son was filled with the Father's Holy Spirit who is a portal through which the Father makes residence in the being indwelled. It is through the Holy Spirit that the Father communicates His will and empowers in order to fulfill it. The Father puts all things created under the Son's feet. That would make the Son Lord and God of all creation in our reality, but the Father is the One God of all, including His Son. I believe, worship, and pray to the same God that Jesus obeyed, worshipped, and prayed to which is the Father. The Father performed miracles through Jesus when Jesus was a human. He told his listeners that if they didn't believe his words, they should believe through his miracles that he was sent by God. Satan is the great deceiver and those deceived don't even know it.
According to my friend:
In John 1: 1 we are taken to a beginning. There are only two beings there because creation has not started. One is the Father and the other is His Son. One has no beginning and the other one has to have a beginning in order for there to be a beginning. Why are the words Father and Son used? The Father cannot be His own Son. Any son comes into existence after the father.
Of course, Christ was the Word before the incarnation. He also existed before creation of our physical universe.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day (the beginning) have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's mind from which all things exist. That is how He has all those powers. In our reality, Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the only begotten Son of God the Father. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's Spirit completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His Holy Spirit, which is a portal through which the Father can enter the being indwelled. The invisible God, the Father, created our reality through His visible image, the Son, and put all of creation under His Son's feet making His Son the Lord and God of all creation.
When Christ became a man, the Spirit of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
In John 1: 1 we are taken to a beginning. There are only two beings there because creation has not started. One is the Father and the other is His Son. One has no beginning and the other one has to have a beginning in order for there to be a beginning. Why are the words Father and Son used? The Father cannot be His own Son. Any son comes into existence after the father.
Of course, Christ was the Word before the incarnation. He also existed before creation of our physical universe.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day (the beginning) have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's mind from which all things exist. That is how He has all those powers. In our reality, Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the only begotten Son of God the Father. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's Spirit completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His Holy Spirit, which is a portal through which the Father can enter the being indwelled. The invisible God, the Father, created our reality through His visible image, the Son, and put all of creation under His Son's feet making His Son the Lord and God of all creation.
When Christ became a man, the Spirit of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
It doesn't use the words 'father' or 'son': there is God and the Word which was with God and was God.
The Word doesn't have to have a beginning. If the Word is eternal, there can still be a beginning for everything else. Jesus said he is the beginning and the end- if your friend supposes Jesus HAS a beginning, does he also suppose Jesus has an end?
"Father" and "Son" are not used until v.14- when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. They are quite literal terms. The Word's existence -specifically in the form of flesh- did come after.
What suggests "this day" is the beginning, as you have parenthesized?
I've never heard someone describe the Holy Spirit as a "portal"... so exactly what this is supposed to mean from your friends point of view is nebulous... I suppose it might be allright to think of him as a portal; after all, Jesus said "I am the door".
I know there are those who believe the Holy Spirit is some sort of impersonal "energy" or something; but we should understand that "Holy Spirit" refers to God himself.
The Word doesn't have to have a beginning. If the Word is eternal, there can still be a beginning for everything else. Jesus said he is the beginning and the end- if your friend supposes Jesus HAS a beginning, does he also suppose Jesus has an end?
"Father" and "Son" are not used until v.14- when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. They are quite literal terms. The Word's existence -specifically in the form of flesh- did come after.
What suggests "this day" is the beginning, as you have parenthesized?
I've never heard someone describe the Holy Spirit as a "portal"... so exactly what this is supposed to mean from your friends point of view is nebulous... I suppose it might be allright to think of him as a portal; after all, Jesus said "I am the door".
I know there are those who believe the Holy Spirit is some sort of impersonal "energy" or something; but we should understand that "Holy Spirit" refers to God himself.
My friend says:
1 John 4: 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
The Son (Christ) is the only begotten son of the Father. Christ was already the only begotten son of the Father before He was sent.
Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by Him, and for Him; And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the Church; who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence.
Christ is both the first-born of all creation and the first-born from the dead.
Isaiah 43: 10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. From this verse we notice that the speaker has a "before me" and implies that he is the only God formed. Can an ever-existing God be formed? This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the infinite past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's mind. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Father is the one God of all including Christ. Christ is the God and Lord of all creation.
Prov 8: 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. "Everlasting" means lasting forever, not "always existing". An ever-existing almighty God does not get "set up". The speaker is Christ who is the only begotten Son of God.
Prov 8: 24-25 When there were no depts, I was brought forth-- when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, was I brought forth. Does an ever-existing almighty God get brought forth?
John 6 : 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me.
Jesus' will is distinct from the Father's, yet, because He is one with the Father and sits on His right hand, He came down from Heaven to do the Father's will. Christ was sent and He obeyed the Father's will before He became human.
1 John 4: 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
The Son (Christ) is the only begotten son of the Father. Christ was already the only begotten son of the Father before He was sent into the world.
1 John 4: 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
The Son (Christ) is the only begotten son of the Father. Christ was already the only begotten son of the Father before He was sent.
Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by Him, and for Him; And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the Church; who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence.
Christ is both the first-born of all creation and the first-born from the dead.
Isaiah 43: 10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. From this verse we notice that the speaker has a "before me" and implies that he is the only God formed. Can an ever-existing God be formed? This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the infinite past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's mind. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Father is the one God of all including Christ. Christ is the God and Lord of all creation.
Prov 8: 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. "Everlasting" means lasting forever, not "always existing". An ever-existing almighty God does not get "set up". The speaker is Christ who is the only begotten Son of God.
Prov 8: 24-25 When there were no depts, I was brought forth-- when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, was I brought forth. Does an ever-existing almighty God get brought forth?
John 6 : 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me.
Jesus' will is distinct from the Father's, yet, because He is one with the Father and sits on His right hand, He came down from Heaven to do the Father's will. Christ was sent and He obeyed the Father's will before He became human.
1 John 4: 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
The Son (Christ) is the only begotten son of the Father. Christ was already the only begotten son of the Father before He was sent into the world.
Concerning the Holy Spirit:
God the Father has god-like qualities such as being everywhere at once, knows what everyone is thinking and feeling, can do anything including create out of nothing, knows everything including past, present, and future, has always existed, and can create realities in His mind. That is how He has all those qualities and powers. Our reality is in the mind of the Father. Do you have another explanation?
Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. In this scripture Isaiah is stating that the Holy Spirit is the angel of God's (the Father's) presence. Where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is. He refers to the Holy Spirit as an angel because it can be sent. The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father communicates, speaks through, and empowers those indwelled.
1Cor 3: 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? Where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is.
John 17: 20-24 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory (Holy Spirit) which thou gavest me I have given them, that they may be one (connected by the Holy Spirit), even as we are one; I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me; for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
The Son is the temple of the Father, and because we are part of the spiritual body of Christ, we are also the temple of the Father and the Son. The Father glorified Jesus when He ascended into heaven by giving Him a kingdom or a spiritual body composed of souls who have received the Father's Holy Spirit through belief in His Son. It is the Father that gives us to Christ and we become one with the Father and Son because it is through their Spirit (presence in our beings) that our lives are directed and swayed by them. That is how man is made in the image of God (through the Holy Spirit).
Gal 3: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (belief in His Son). Through faith we receive the promised Holy Spirit. We each receive a portal through which they can indwell our inner being and influence our thoughts and actions by filling us with the same kind of love that they share.
God the Father has god-like qualities such as being everywhere at once, knows what everyone is thinking and feeling, can do anything including create out of nothing, knows everything including past, present, and future, has always existed, and can create realities in His mind. That is how He has all those qualities and powers. Our reality is in the mind of the Father. Do you have another explanation?
Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. In this scripture Isaiah is stating that the Holy Spirit is the angel of God's (the Father's) presence. Where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is. He refers to the Holy Spirit as an angel because it can be sent. The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father communicates, speaks through, and empowers those indwelled.
1Cor 3: 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? Where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is.
John 17: 20-24 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory (Holy Spirit) which thou gavest me I have given them, that they may be one (connected by the Holy Spirit), even as we are one; I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me; for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
The Son is the temple of the Father, and because we are part of the spiritual body of Christ, we are also the temple of the Father and the Son. The Father glorified Jesus when He ascended into heaven by giving Him a kingdom or a spiritual body composed of souls who have received the Father's Holy Spirit through belief in His Son. It is the Father that gives us to Christ and we become one with the Father and Son because it is through their Spirit (presence in our beings) that our lives are directed and swayed by them. That is how man is made in the image of God (through the Holy Spirit).
Gal 3: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (belief in His Son). Through faith we receive the promised Holy Spirit. We each receive a portal through which they can indwell our inner being and influence our thoughts and actions by filling us with the same kind of love that they share.
You need to read things in context - David is also the Begotten son Ps 2:7. 'this day' causes a lot of confusion can it literally be this day!
You also have 'Melchizedek' who has no beginning or ending or parents etc...
There is also: Jeremiah 1:5 God says, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; before you were born,
Its difficult to explain without giving context
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Here is more on the Holy Spirit from my friend:
Because the Father operates in our reality through the beings which He inhabits, the Son is the visible image of the invisible God in our reality. The Son is our creator, our Lord and God in our reality, but the Father is the Lord and God of all realities and everything in them. Sometimes the Son speaks his own words, and sometimes the Son speaks the words of the Father. John 16: 13 Nevertheless, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come. John 6 : 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me. John 12: 49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father, who sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak, therefore, even (that is) as the Father said unto me, so I speak. Matt 10: 19-20 But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak; for it shall be given you in the same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaketh in you. The Father speaks through those who are indwelled with His Holy Spirit. John 3: 34-35 For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God; for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand. John 14: 8-9 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been such a long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father John 14: 10 Believest thou that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. The Son is the image of the invisible God the Father. Everything that the Son says and does is said and done by the Father through the Holy Spirit (portal) that fills the Son.
Because the Father operates in our reality through the beings which He inhabits, the Son is the visible image of the invisible God in our reality. The Son is our creator, our Lord and God in our reality, but the Father is the Lord and God of all realities and everything in them. Sometimes the Son speaks his own words, and sometimes the Son speaks the words of the Father. John 16: 13 Nevertheless, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come. John 6 : 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me. John 12: 49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father, who sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak, therefore, even (that is) as the Father said unto me, so I speak. Matt 10: 19-20 But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak; for it shall be given you in the same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaketh in you. The Father speaks through those who are indwelled with His Holy Spirit. John 3: 34-35 For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God; for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand. John 14: 8-9 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been such a long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father John 14: 10 Believest thou that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. The Son is the image of the invisible God the Father. Everything that the Son says and does is said and done by the Father through the Holy Spirit (portal) that fills the Son.
Does anyone think that my friend is not saved if he believes that our reality is in the mind of the Father and the Father creates many realities. The first being created in our reality was His Son and our reality was created by the Father through through His Son (who sits on His right Hand) and for His Son. He believes that the Father is the invisible God and His Holy Spirit is the angel of His presence which means that where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is. He fills His Son's being with His Holy Spirit which means that the Father resides in His Son's being. Since the Son obeys His Father, the Son is the image of the invisible God, his Father, even though the Son has his own mind and will. All creation is placed under the Son's feet which makes the Son the Lord and God of all creation. Concerning my friend:
1. He loves God the Father with all his heart
2. He loves God the Son with all his heart. He just doesn't believe that they are the same being. The Father's presence (His Holy Spirit) is in His Son because of His Holy Spirit and will be in our beings when we receive His Holy Spirit by trusting in Jesus.
3. He believes that the Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father can interact with our reality through the beings indwelled. He speaks through, informs, and empowers to perform His will.
4. He believes that the God of the Old Testament is God the Son because an all knowing God would not be surprised, or have his mind changed, or get angry.
5. My friend is full of love for all people and wishes to do the Father's will which is to preach what he perceives as truth. All that he asks of people is to listen. He believes that whether or not one believes is up to God.
6. He believes that the Father is the one God of all, including His Son. When the Son sits on his throne, so will the Father who resides in him.
7. He believes in the remission of sins through Jesus' death and being born again and getting perfected when we receive the Holy Spirit of the Father.
1. He loves God the Father with all his heart
2. He loves God the Son with all his heart. He just doesn't believe that they are the same being. The Father's presence (His Holy Spirit) is in His Son because of His Holy Spirit and will be in our beings when we receive His Holy Spirit by trusting in Jesus.
3. He believes that the Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father can interact with our reality through the beings indwelled. He speaks through, informs, and empowers to perform His will.
4. He believes that the God of the Old Testament is God the Son because an all knowing God would not be surprised, or have his mind changed, or get angry.
5. My friend is full of love for all people and wishes to do the Father's will which is to preach what he perceives as truth. All that he asks of people is to listen. He believes that whether or not one believes is up to God.
6. He believes that the Father is the one God of all, including His Son. When the Son sits on his throne, so will the Father who resides in him.
7. He believes in the remission of sins through Jesus' death and being born again and getting perfected when we receive the Holy Spirit of the Father.
Revelation 19:12,13 KJV
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 1:13-15 KJV
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 1:13-15 KJV
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.