The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

[GWH]

I hope no one is impacted negatively by those who discern poorly and ascribe things to others that aren't so.
The parable of the talents doesn't evidence fairness. Fairness would mean everyone would have gotten the same number of talents. They did not. But justice was exercised as each received some and all were required to gain an increase.

Methinks you mistake equity for fairness.

 

[GWH]

You got it right brother. Good for you.

Well I try and am glad your interpretation agrees.

 

[Cameron143]

Methinks you mistake equity for fairness.

The definition of equity is the quality of being fair, so...I guess Webster did the same thing.

 

[GWH]

The definition of equity is the quality of being fair, so...I guess Webster did the same thing.

Maybe but equity is assigning or requiring the same outcome or result whereas fairness is providing equal opportunity to seek God, but some may choose to serve Satan.

 

[Cameron143]

Maybe but equity is assigning or requiring the same outcome or result whereas fairness is providing equal opportunity to seek God, but some may choose to serve Satan.

If you agree that equity is the quality of being fair, then the 2 are synonymous. Either way, I'm juxtaposing fairness with justice. Fairness and equity attempt to give the same outcomes or conditions. Justice, on the other hand, simply applies a standard. Outcomes don't have to be equitable or fair, only in keeping with the standard.

 

[Beckworth]

Leading a discussion is like herding cats, and some of you cats are still not focusing on the question of salvation for those who have never heard the NT Gospel. Another way of putting the question is "On what basis will God justly condemn someone who never had the opportunity to hear the NT Gospel?"

I think God’s just judgment is illustrated by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (MT 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per JN 1:1f.) they have received with ten talents representing the NT Gospel, five talents = the OT, and one talent referring to those who only experienced or had access to general revelation or Nature/Creation, as per RM 1:20.

Have you looked at the references to what I called a "proto-Gospel"? (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8)

I’m not sure if this is what you are looking for, but in regard to what God will do with those who have never heard of God or the gospel, 2 Thess. 1:8 says that God will take vengeance on all those who DO NOT KNOW GOD and those who do not obey the gospel.

God made sure The gospel was preached to the whole world: Mark 16:15 Jesus told His disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Matthew 24:14. “And this gospel …will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations.” Mark 13:10- “The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.” Col. 1:6-“…the truth of the gospel which has come to you as it has also in all the world.” I offer these scriptures to show that God did His part; it is not His fault if someone never hears the gospel. He has made it available to every nation.

Now, for those who lived before Christ and never heard the gospel, Hebrews 9:15 says that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant (testament), by means of death, FOR THE REDEMPTION OF THE TRANSGRESSIONS committed under the first covenant (Old Testament), so that those who are called (saved) may receive the promise of eternal inheritance. The blood of Jesus reaches FORWARD to cleanse all of us who are living 2000 years AFTER the cross of Christ AND it reaches BACKWARD to the beginning of time to cleanse all the saved who lived before the death of Christ, regardless of what law they were living under. They did not have to obey the gospel of Christ which they never knew. They just had to be faithful to God in obeying whatever God told them to do. For example, the Old Testament Jews had to offer animal sacrifices, and keep the 10 commandment and many other Jewish laws. If a Jew lived faithfully to God under that old law—then Jesus’s blood cleansed him and saved him.

 

[decipher]

I take it you believe that God saves all, since He loves everyone. When Jesus preached repentance He was wasting His breath?

Simply put, in order for God to demonstrate His justice to those spiritual beings who are watching what is going on with humans on earth, no one is worthy except Christ and all are condemned to damnation except Christ. To demonstrate His mercy, God the Father saves a few. Christ died for everyone, allowing the Father to choose who to save from all humans. In order to save those chosen, He remits their sins through Christ and fixes them by filling them with the same love that the Father and Son share through the Holy Spirit, so that they can follow the Spirit of the Law as Jesus commanded. God judges the hearts of men and it is God who changes the hearts of men to make them acceptable. That happens when the person is born again with a new heart. Jesus came down to earth to call sinners to repentance and it is God the Father who grants this repentance. This repentance cannot be refused because once granted, you are in that state of being. We as humans would love for all humans to get fixed and saved, but God is sovereign and He wants to demonstrate His justice and mercy. Those that receive His mercy are thankful for His grace and mercy and for changing them. Those who do not, in God's eyes are receiving their just reward. My advice for those not chosen is to pray to the Father to change your heart by receiving His Holy Spirit.

 

[Publican]

Psalms 119:160 says that the “SUM” of God’s word is truth. You must accept everything that God says saves us. Most denominations only accept the part that they like, and reject anything else even if God says it. That is a mistake that will cause you to lose your soul. Not only are we not to “ADD” to God’s word, but we are not to TAKE AWAY from what He says either. Deut. 4:2, Proverbs 30:6 and Rev. 22:18-19.

If you want to know God’s truth on what to do to be saved, then here is what God says in His word: Romans 10:17 tells us that faith comes by hearing the WORD OF GOD. THAT is where we start. We don’t wait for the Holy Spirit to “ZAP” us with knowledge. I’m talking about preaching God’s knowledge, Paul said that God put this “treasure” in EARTHEN VESSELS”. 2Corinthians 4:7. The ones who preach and teach God’s word are the earthen vessels who tell us God’s gospel. Matthew 28:18-19. So, being taught or hearing the gospel is the first step, Jesus tells us Himself what to do next—“He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” FAITH is necessary Hebrews 11:6. We must believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Romans 10:10 gives us another step. “ With the mouth CONFESSION is made unto salvation.” Matt. 10:32 says we MUST confess Jesus (as the son of God). This confession is not confessing our sins but confessing our faith in Jesus as the Son of God. We are taught this in the example of the Ethiopian eunuch innActs 8. He confessed His faith in Christ just before his baptism. Repentance is necessary and should have been put before confession. Acts 2:38 is Peter’s answer to “what shall we do?” He says to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. And the last and final step is BAPTISM.

All you have to do to be lost is just leave out one step or one thing that Jesus commanded. AndcSatan has been very successful in deceiving people so that they reject baptism “for the remission of sins “ like Peter said. They reject what Jesus says in Mark 16:16–that baptism comes BEFORE salvation. They refuse to believe what Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that BAPTISM SAVES US. Remember Rev. 22:18-19. They have “TAKEN AWAY” baptism as necessary to salvation when God has clearly put it there. Remember we are to PUT IT ALL TOGETHER and take the SUM of everything God has said. Only then do we have the “TRUTH.”

Prove this to yourself. Look at every conversion in the book of Acts and just see how people in the 1st century were saved. Not every step was mentioned in each example but in EVERY CASE everyone of them was baptized! (Acts 2, 8, 9, 10, 16, 22.).

God says you are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ONLY. James 2:24. No one is denying that faith is necessary—but God says there is more than that. If you only believe, you have left out all of the scriptures and commands on repentance, confession and baptism. You will come up short on Judgement day. Make sure you know all that God says to do—and then do it.

Water baptism is not required for salvation. I'm surprised anyone still holds to this view. The thief on the cross was not baptized. Had he survived the afternoon however, I'm sure it would have been at the top of his to do list.

 

[GWH]

I’m not sure if this is what you are looking for, but in regard to what God will do with those who have never heard of God or the gospel, 2 Thess. 1:8 says that God will take vengeance on all those who DO NOT KNOW GOD and those who do not obey the gospel.

God made sure The gospel was preached to the whole world: Mark 16:15 Jesus told His disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Matthew 24:14. “And this gospel …will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations.” Mark 13:10- “The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.” Col. 1:6-“…the truth of the gospel which has come to you as it has also in all the world.” I offer these scriptures to show that God did His part; it is not His fault if someone never hears the gospel. He has made it available to every nation.

Now, for those who lived before Christ and never heard the gospel, Hebrews 9:15 says that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant (testament), by means of death, FOR THE REDEMPTION OF THE TRANSGRESSIONS committed under the first covenant (Old Testament), so that those who are called (saved) may receive the promise of eternal inheritance. The blood of Jesus reaches FORWARD to cleanse all of us who are living 2000 years AFTER the cross of Christ AND it reaches BACKWARD to the beginning of time to cleanse all the saved who lived before the death of Christ, regardless of what law they were living under. They did not have to obey the gospel of Christ which they never knew. They just had to be faithful to God in obeying whatever God told them to do. For example, the Old Testament Jews had to offer animal sacrifices, and keep the 10 commandment and many other Jewish laws. If a Jew lived faithfully to God under that old law—then Jesus’s blood cleansed him and saved him.

Yes, that understanding is what I think Scripture in the vein of 1TM2:3-4 teaches about God’s righteousness.

 

[wattie]

I agree. But that would be direct revelation. Do you believe God has come directly to every person who throughout history has not heard the gospel?

Well, sometimes you get a rebellious whole nation or group, who get wiped out for their rebellion, so there is that. But God would warn them, through their leaders what would happen if they did not trust Him. So they would still get the message.

I believe God gives everyone a chance. How that works exactly im not so sure.. but you can see in the bible people such as those who talked about the 'unknown God'.. who actually were aware of the real God.

I just dont think we can limit God in His power to give all a chance to know Him.

 

[wattie]

Water baptism is not required for salvation. I'm surprised anyone still holds to this view. The thief on the cross was not baptized. Had he survived the afternoon however, I'm sure it would have been at the top of his to do list.

There are many who populate christian forums that believe water baptism saves. I think its getting more and more common.

 

[JohnRH]

An obvious question to ask at this point is, “What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?” (which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.)

Keeping in mind that God is Jesus and Jesus is God, no one (BC & AD) has ever not heard of Him. One thing I know from Scripture is that God never willed for me to be saved one iota more than for every other human who ever lived to be saved. And that He's taken all the initiative necessary for them to become saved.

 

[GWH]

Simply put, in order for God to demonstrate His justice to those spiritual beings who are watching what is going on with humans on earth, no one is worthy except Christ and all are condemned to damnation except Christ. To demonstrate His mercy, God the Father saves a few. Christ died for everyone, allowing the Father to choose who to save from all humans. In order to save those chosen, He remits their sins through Christ and fixes them by filling them with the same love that the Father and Son share through the Holy Spirit, so that they can follow the Spirit of the Law as Jesus commanded. God judges the hearts of men and it is God who changes the hearts of men to make them acceptable. That happens when the person is born again with a new heart. Jesus came down to earth to call sinners to repentance and it is God the Father who grants this repentance. This repentance cannot be refused because once granted, you are in that state of being. We as humans would love for all humans to get fixed and saved, but God is sovereign and He wants to demonstrate His justice and mercy. Those that receive His mercy are thankful for His grace and mercy and for changing them. Those who do not, in God's eyes are receiving their just reward. My advice for those not chosen is to pray to the Father to change your heart by receiving His Holy Spirit.

This view denies God's justice as well as love and human free will, which makes Him responsible for sin by not changing the hearts of most people. You would do well to ponder DT 30:19 until it sinks in: "...I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." Another verse in this vein is MT 23:37: "O Jerusalem... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Of course, JN 3:16-18 assumes that "whoever" has the opportunity to hear the Gospel about Christ.

IOW, Although all have sinned and are condemned, in order to demonstrate His mercy and love for all sinners/enemies (MT 5:43-48), God the Father chooses to save all who repent and choose to cooperate with His plan of salvation, which is indeed centered on Christ dying for everyone. Thus, all sinners may become chosen and receive God's Holy Spirit by praying that God would change their heart.

 

[Cameron143]

Well, sometimes you get a rebellious whole nation or group, who get wiped out for their rebellion, so there is that. But God would warn them, through their leaders what would happen if they did not trust Him. So they would still get the message.

I believe God gives everyone a chance. How that works exactly im not so sure.. but you can see in the bible people such as those who talked about the 'unknown God'.. who actually were aware of the real God.

I just dont think we can limit God in His power to give all a chance to know Him.

I understand this position. God is love so certain things must be true of Him. But God is the sum of all His attributes. He isn't one more than others. And God is equally glorified in each.
Your example of the "unknown God" is a good example. We know from Romans 1 and Ecclesiastes 3 that the existence of God is made known to all humanity. While this is enough to make all accountable to God and guilty before Him, it is insufficient for salvation. Eternal life...John 17:3...is an intimate knowledge of God that involves the revelation of Himself to an individual. It is also the way Jesus builds His church...blessed are you Simon...for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven...Matthew 16:17. The fact that God was unknown means that He was not revealed.
The idea that salvation comes through revelation is untenable to many, but this is what John 3 teaches...the Spirit moves where He wills.

 

[GWH]

I understand this position. God is love so certain things must be true of Him. But God is the sum of all His attributes. He isn't one more than others. And God is equally glorified in each.
Your example of the "unknown God" is a good example. We know from Romans 1 and Ecclesiastes 3 that the existence of God is made known to all humanity. While this is enough to make all accountable to God and guilty before Him, it is insufficient for salvation. Eternal life...John 17:3...is an intimate knowledge of God that involves the revelation of Himself to an individual. It is also the way Jesus builds His church...blessed are you Simon...for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven...Matthew 16:17. The fact that God was unknown means that He was not revealed.
The idea that salvation comes through revelation is untenable to many, but this is what John 3 teaches...the Spirit moves where He wills.

Yes, but where/how/what does God’s Spirit will is the question.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, but where/how/what does God’s Spirit will is the question.

He moves sovereignly...that's the point...where He wills. He is not responding to outward stimuli, but inward.

 

[GWH]

He moves sovereignly...that's the point...where He wills. He is not responding to outward stimuli, but inward.

That point is not in question, and I guess you do not will to respond to the other one.

 

[Cameron143]

That point is not in question, and I guess you do not will to respond to the other one.

I'm not sure what you are asking as my response did answer what I believed you were asking. Perhaps you will restate your question and I'll give it another shot.

 

[decipher]

This view denies God's justice as well as love and human free will, which makes Him responsible for sin by not changing the hearts of most people. You would do well to ponder DT 30:19 until it sinks in: "...I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." Another verse in this vein is MT 23:37: "O Jerusalem... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Of course, JN 3:16-18 assumes that "whoever" has the opportunity to hear the Gospel about Christ.

IOW, Although all have sinned and are condemned, in order to demonstrate His mercy and love for all sinners/enemies (MT 5:43-48), God the Father chooses to save all who repent and choose to cooperate with His plan of salvation, which is indeed centered on Christ dying for everyone. Thus, all sinners may become chosen and receive God's Holy Spirit by praying that God would change their heart.

John 1: 13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. This clearly states that it is God who chooses, not man. The Father chooses to save all to whom He grants repentance, not to those who choose to repent on their own. Born again people are chosen by the will of God, not by the will of man.

 

[Wansvic]

When it comes to salvation, we must keep that obedience in proper perspective as to context.

The Bible was written to believers in the Lord. It requires a LOT of works as members of His family, just as my parents did. However, I wasn't the one who went through labor to become a child of the family.
Believe it or not, I was Not always obedient to my parents from my youth up. Even so, I was still a son of my parents.

Being born spiritually, John 3, is much different.

Belief and obedience to the Acts 2:38 commands result in becoming a born again child of God. If you will recall, Jesus gave the keyS of kingdom to Peter who presented them on that day, and thereafter. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48) "Unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot of see or enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5)