Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
1,099
295
83
I don't personally even BOTHER with anything presented in that style.
I don't know about long lists, but I encourage y'all to have the goal of reading all of God's Word in small chunks, since God bothered to have it recorded for us. I recommend beginning with the Gospel of John and Paul's epistle to the Ephesians.
 

Hakawaka

Active member
Jul 1, 2021
308
158
43
And another thing:

Calvinists must LIE when they preach (if in fact they ever do.....many "in the club" do not) to the unsaved world, saying that all men need to believe and be saved......but what they DO NOT say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the intended audience to do so OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

When was the last time you told an unsaved person that it is IMPOSSIBLE for THEY THEMSELVES to believe?
Probably not very often.
Why so hard on the calvinists, you are the John MacArthur guy? He is a calvinist as well.
 

Hakawaka

Active member
Jul 1, 2021
308
158
43
I believe anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved...Romans 10:13. But I also believe that no man calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit...1 Corinthians 12:3. So, given both those scriptures, how do you account for why an individual calls upon the name of the Lord?
This is a great argument, one i've never heard of before. Thanks for that buddy. You probably have been debating me in the other calvinist threads. I still want my other questions answered though, like why is God mad or frustrated at people NOT doing His will, not walking in His commandments when He could just give people the spirit to do it??? How can anyone be held accountable.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,034
8,375
113
like why is God mad or frustrated at people NOT doing His will, not walking in His commandments when He could just give people the spirit to do it??? How can anyone be held accountable.
Exactly. This is the accusation of Satan. God is evil, the author of evil, therefore God's judgement CANNOT happen.
Nobody is guilty of anything.

They are in for a surprise.

If you care to undertake a careful analysis of these Calvinist "sound-bites", it becomes obvious that the whole shebang
is mindless sophistry and a dog chasing its tail.

What's worse, its a useless waste of time.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,034
8,375
113
Why so hard on the calvinists, you are the John MacArthur guy? He is a calvinist as well.
There you go buddy....
Evidently some of the ancient Israelites were fatalistic nutter Calvinists. And they were wrong too.
And the TRUTH is that they DID IN FACT have a FREE WILL CHOICE.
And they THEMSELVES chose to do THEIR WILL, and REFUSED to do the will of God.

Accordingly, they will be judged. And their judgement will be righteous.

Pay attention @Magenta @Cameron143 @rogerg @dougcho

[Jer 18:10 KJV]
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

[Jer 18:11 KJV]
Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

[Jer 18:12 KJV]
And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
 

Hakawaka

Active member
Jul 1, 2021
308
158
43
Nope. Not a MacArthurite.

Bailed on him a long time ago.
Great. I must of mixed you up with someone else im sorry brother. He lost me when he said you can take the mark of the beast and be saved.
 

Hakawaka

Active member
Jul 1, 2021
308
158
43
Exactly. This is the accusation of Satan. God is evil, the author of evil, therefore God's judgement CANNOT happen.
Nobody is guilty of anything.

They are in for a surprise.

If you care to undertake a careful analysis of these Calvinist "sound-bites", it becomes obvious that the whole shebang
is mindless sophistry and a dog chasing its tail.

What's worse, its a useless waste of time.
Exactly how I feel. They have a few great proof-texts and arguments but if you take Scripture as a whole, so much of it just makes no sense on that calvinist lense. It makes everything into a meaningless soap opera where God is just playing games with people, pleading to them "REPENT" yet He is the reason they wont. Its so strange. Yet these people are held accountable for it?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
This is a great argument, one i've never heard of before. Thanks for that buddy. You probably have been debating me in the other calvinist threads. I still want my other questions answered though, like why is God mad or frustrated at people NOT doing His will, not walking in His commandments when He could just give people the spirit to do it??? How can anyone be held accountable.
Just so you know, I don't identify as any "ist" or "ism". I identify as a Christian. This in spite of the fact that many like to label others so they can dismiss arguments carte blanche without ever having to consider them. I'm glad you considered the argument.
Your other questions show you are seeking for truth, and can't reconcile what you believe to be true concerning God and scripture and what scripture actually reveals. Every real truth seeker comes to this place and scratches their head. Am I misunderstanding scripture or am I holding some belief that isn't actually correct? This has happened to me again and again as I have pursued knowing God.
So let's examine:
Romans 1 clearly makes man accountable before God because of his sin.
God clearly has the ability to save everyone and no one can stop Him...Daniel 4:35.
Close to 200,000 people die everyday; many, if not most, being unsaved.
What are we to make of this?

I'm happy to share my thoughts concerning this. But perhaps you will prayerfully consider the question and reply before I do.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,034
8,375
113
Exactly how I feel. They have a few great proof-texts and arguments but if you take Scripture as a whole, so much of it just makes no sense on that calvinist lense. It makes everything into a meaningless soap opera where God is just playing games with people, pleading to them "REPENT" yet He is the reason they wont. Its so strange. Yet these people are held accountable for it?
And it blasphemes God by characterizing Him as a cosmic tyrant cosmic joker supervillian.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
1,099
295
83
Exactly how I feel. They have a few great proof-texts and arguments but if you take Scripture as a whole, so much of it just makes no sense on that calvinist lense. It makes everything into a meaningless soap opera where God is just playing games with people, pleading to them "REPENT" yet He is the reason they wont. Its so strange. Yet these people are held accountable for it?
Yes, and I might point out that Calvinism is derived from Augustine of Hippo about 400 A.D., whose doctrine of predestination failed to acknowledge God's love for everyone, including His enemies.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
1,099
295
83
Just so you know, I don't identify as any "ist" or "ism". I identify as a Christian. This in spite of the fact that many like to label others so they can dismiss arguments carte blanche without ever having to consider them. I'm glad you considered the argument.
Your other questions show you are seeking for truth, and can't reconcile what you believe to be true concerning God and scripture and what scripture actually reveals. Every real truth seeker comes to this place and scratches their head. Am I misunderstanding scripture or am I holding some belief that isn't actually correct? This has happened to me again and again as I have pursued knowing God.
So let's examine:
Romans 1 clearly makes man accountable before God because of his sin.
God clearly has the ability to save everyone and no one can stop Him...Daniel 4:35.
Close to 200,000 people die everyday; many, if not most, being unsaved.
What are we to make of this?

I'm happy to share my thoughts concerning this. But perhaps you will prayerfully consider the question and reply before I do.
The issue is not whether people are unsaved, but rather whether they had the opportunity to be saved and thus are justly condemned to hell if they rejected or ignored it.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
The issue is not whether people are unsaved, but rather whether they had the opportunity to be saved and thus are justly condemned to hell if they rejected or ignored it.
I disagree. Your argument hinges on whether or not God is required to offer salvation in order to bring condemnation. Where is this argument made in scripture?
I would argue that God has already brought condemnation on all mankind in Adam. Where do you find from scripture that God must offer salvation to any?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,927
2,296
113
Right. And hyper-Calvinism is junk theology fit for the rubbish heap.
R.C. Sproul Jr. is CLEARLY quoted as saying the GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, and GOD CREATED EVIL. An outrageous heresy.
Agree.

It is such a bizarre system, yes they need to hear the Gospel because they are God's selected.

Makes God a liar each time the Gospel is preached to the un-selected.
There is no way around that, that is why I refute the TULIP doctrine.

Oh of course they are not really Calvinists most will say, at the very least Sproul was honest about the true ramifications of this gross system!
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,034
8,375
113
I disagree. Your argument hinges on whether or not God is required to offer salvation in order to bring condemnation. Where is this argument made in scripture?
I would argue that God has already brought condemnation on all mankind in Adam. Where do you find from scripture that God must offer salvation to any?
It isn't. And Adam and the Woman both FREELY confessed and repented and were saved by grace thru faith.

Consequently God Himself brought SALVATION to all those in Adam. And ANYONE can partake of this sure SALVATION that God prepared before the foundation of the world.

And you thought He brought condemnation from before the foundation of the world did you? Sick.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,927
2,296
113
Exactly how I feel. They have a few great proof-texts and arguments but if you take Scripture as a whole, so much of it just makes no sense on that calvinist lense. It makes everything into a meaningless soap opera where God is just playing games with people, pleading to them "REPENT" yet He is the reason they wont. Its so strange. Yet these people are held accountable for it?
Amen

It is a different god, when they start with God did not have to offer salvation to anyone then you know it is not the God of scripture.

As though God is lamenting man's horribleness but had to glorify Himself like some egocentric tyrant and so reluctantly He decided He would suffer on the cross and defeat death and claim a limited number as His own and well the trajectory of the others was already in place too bad, so sad.

What a horrible way to justify selection/election, just horrible.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
It isn't. And Adam and the Woman both FREELY confessed and repented and were saved by grace thru faith.

Consequently God Himself brought SALVATION to all those in Adam. And ANYONE can partake of this sure SALVATION that God prepared before the foundation of the world.

And you thought He brought condemnation from before the foundation of the world did you? Sick.
Again you bear false witness. I never said God brought condemnation from before the foundation of the world. I clearly said in Adam.
And where is your testimony of Adam and Eve in salvation found in the scripture? I can find God shedding blood and making them a covering, but I missed their confessions of faith. Perhaps you can point them out to me?
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
1,099
295
83
I disagree. Your argument hinges on whether or not God is required to offer salvation in order to bring condemnation. Where is this argument made in scripture?
I would argue that God has already brought condemnation on all mankind in Adam. Where do you find from scripture that God must offer salvation to any?
No, my argument is what Paul says in 1TM 2:3-4. God is not required to love anyone, but He chooses to love everyone and He condemns no one without providing the opportunity to be saved, or else He would not be neither loving nor just.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
Amen

It is a different god, when they start with God did not have to offer salvation to anyone then you know it is not the God of scripture.

As though God is lamenting man's horribleness but had to glorify Himself like some egocentric tyrant and so reluctantly He decided He would suffer on the cross and defeat death and claim a limited number as His own and well the trajectory of the others was already in place too bad, so sad.

What a horrible way to justify selection/election, just horrible.
You have the opportunity from scripture to point out where God is beholden to save anyone. Please show me where it is found.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
No, my argument is what Paul says in 1TM 2:3-4. God is not required to love anyone, but He chooses to love everyone and He condemns no one without providing the opportunity to be saved, or else He would not be neither loving nor just.
Not so. It can be true that God desires the salvation of all and still not all be saved. He can also be loving and not exercise love to all. He can also be just by exercising judgment to some while grace towards others.
Do all get saved even though it is an expressed desire of God? No.
Is hell an expression of the will of God? Hardly.
Does God exercise grace towards some and justice towards other? Yes.
Did God change? No. He remains both loving and just.