What Changed?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
Slaves are not 100% controlled by their masters. They can rebel and disobey their masters at times. Read Philemon. and the history of "night trains" and "the underground railway". You don't understand what slavery is.
Well said.
Slaves can be faithful or rebellious.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,321
6,647
113
62
Of course not. No one knows who is or is not personally listed in the Book of Life.

Any assertion otherwise would be either esoteric or arrogant.
I John 5:13 suggests otherwise.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
The unregenerate who have not the Spirit of God are CONTROLLED by sinful nature and, therefore, CANNOT please God (Rom 8:8). The unregenerate are prisoners of or slaves to their sinful nature. (So much for "free" will!) Prisoners behind bars have only as much freedom to roam about as the space between their walls and bars permit them.
Those who are setting their minds on the flesh (whether Christians or not) cannot please God. Both Christians and non-Christians have spirits and can set their minds at times on spiritual things that their spirit is sensitive to. You are confusing "unregenerate" with "carnal". Unregenerate means "does not have the Spirit of God". Carnal means "has their mind set on the flesh (i.e. in instinctive fight or flight mode)".
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
It says one can know they possess eternal life.
Here is the verse:


1 John 5:13
New International Version


I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1. This verse does not even mention the Book of Life.
2. The verse is not written as a personal letter such as Philemon. Hence no one can claim that John was speaking directly to a certain individual or individuals.
3. The verse is speaking to Christians in general but not affirming which individuals are Christians.
4. Using your logic, anyone can "assert" that their name is written in the Book of Life, by simply claiming you are part of the group that John is writing to.

Simply put, John is affirming that those who hold firm to the Christian faith will be saved but he is most certainly not guaranteeing an individual can know that they are holding firm to the Christian faith.

Remember, where false assurance exist true assurance cannot. Matthew 7:22
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,321
6,647
113
62
Here is the verse:


1 John 5:13
New International Version


I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1. This verse does not even mention the Book of Life.
2. The verse is not written as a personal letter such as Philemon. Hence no one can claim that John was speaking directly to a certain individual or individuals.
3. The verse is speaking to Christians in general but not affirming which individuals are Christians.
4. Using your logic, anyone can "assert" that their name is written in the Book of Life, by simply claiming you are part of the group that John is writing to.

Simply put, John is affirming that those who hold firm to the Christian faith will be saved but he is most certainly not guaranteeing an individual can know that they are holding firm to the Christian faith.

Remember, where false assurance exist true assurance cannot. Matthew 7:22
You obviously don't know this assurance, and that's sad. And yet this is one of the major themes in all he writes:
John 3:16...whosoever believes in Him...shall have eternal life...
John 17:3...and this is eternal life...
John 20:31...these are written...that you might believe...and believing...have life...
1 John 5:13...that ye may know the ye have eternal life...
It's kind of John's thing. He wants people to get saved, and be assured of it.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
You obviously don't know this assurance, and that's sad. And yet this is one of the major themes in all he writes:
John 3:16...whosoever believes in Him...shall have eternal life...
John 17:3...and this is eternal life...
John 20:31...these are written...that you might believe...and believing...have life...
1 John 5:13...that ye may know the ye have eternal life...
It's kind of John's thing. He wants people to get saved, and be assured of it.
It seems you have a theology based on generalities.

Nothing you have written can negate Matthew 7:22.

According to your reasoning if someone asserts that they are in the Book of Life then they must be. Am I correct?

What is sad is that your ditch is so deep you can not fathom the possibility of false assurance.

This may be your eternal undoing.

it is unwise to insist that you cannot be wrong.

Where false assurance exist, true assurance cannot.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,321
6,647
113
62
It seems you have a theology based on generalities.

Nothing you have written can negate Matthew 7:22.

According to your reasoning if someone asserts that they are in the Book of Life then they must be. Am I correct?

What is sad is that your ditch is so deep you can not fathom the possibility of false assurance.

This may be your eternal undoing.

it is unwise to insist that you cannot be wrong.

Where false assurance exist, true assurance cannot.
No I don't believe because someone believes they have eternal life that their name is in the book of life. But all those who truly possess eternal life can be assured that their name is written there.

And you live far below what Christ has gained for and offers His people. Your answers reveal that there is more to a relationship with Christ than you have experienced. Perhaps just consider this and ask God to provide it to you.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
Slaves are not 100% controlled by their masters. They can rebel and disobey their masters at times. Read Philemon. and the history of "night trains" and "the underground railway". You don't understand what slavery is.
The Jews who were in bondage to Pharaoh in Egypt were totally under his control -- UNTIL God broke them out of prison!

Also, your analogy fails because no one can break out of or change their own nature. We humans have zero power to change our nature in order to become something we are not. (See Law of Identity and scripture.) The unregenerate are enslaved to their sinful nature, whereas the redeemed, by God's power, have BECOME something new -- a new creation whereby we are now slaves of righteousness.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
But all those who truly possess eternal life can be assured that their name is written there.
Of course "those who truly possess eternal life" have eternal life because their name is written in the Book of Life.
This is a meaningless word salad.

No I don't believe because someone believes they have eternal life that their name is in the book of life. But all those who truly possess eternal life can be assured that their name is written there.

Your answers reveal that there is more to a relationship with Christ than you have experienced.
You are simply asserting or claiming a relationship based on your own understanding. Our experiences do not prove a relationship exist.
In other words, your "relationship" may be one sided.
Perhaps just consider this and ask God to provide it to you.
And perhaps you should consider honestly reading the scriptures without filtering them through your sensibilities.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
Here is the verse:


1 John 5:13
New International Version


I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1. This verse does not even mention the Book of Life.
2. The verse is not written as a personal letter such as Philemon. Hence no one can claim that John was speaking directly to a certain individual or individuals.
3. The verse is speaking to Christians in general but not affirming which individuals are Christians.
4. Using your logic, anyone can "assert" that their name is written in the Book of Life, by simply claiming you are part of the group that John is writing to.

Simply put, John is affirming that those who hold firm to the Christian faith will be saved but he is most certainly not guaranteeing an individual can know that they are holding firm to the Christian faith.

Remember, where false assurance exist true assurance cannot. Matthew 7:22
Re 1 John -- John addresses his original audience (primarily Jewish believers if you read the epistle carefully) as "dear children" (2:1, 18, 28, etc.) and "dear friends" (2:7), which are terms of endearment. John was clearly writing to fellow believers who had received the anointing from the Son (2:26.27). Also, they are called the "children of God" whom God loves greatly (3:1).

Re Mat 7:22, these are professing believers who never had genuine faith in Christ. Their faith was altogether spurious. We can know this for certain because Christ said, "I NEVER knew you", which stands in sharp contrast to God's elect who He knew in eternity (Rom 8:29; 11:2). (Also see the Parable of the Four Soils for different types of believers.) This is one of the most sobering and alarming texts in all scripture; for it speaks to the depth of the self-deception that resided in these people's hearts (cf. Jer 17:9). They truly believed they were saved, but they were not. They most likely believed some perverted version of the gospel and ran with it, thinking they were good to go. They were as self-deceived as the church in Laodicea who thought much too highly of themselves (Rev 3:14-21).

Philemon and his slave Onesimus were both Christians and so Paul stepped in intervene between the two.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,321
6,647
113
62
Of course "those who truly possess eternal life" have eternal life because their name is written in the Book of Life.
This is a meaningless word salad.


You are simply asserting or claiming a relationship based on your own understanding. Our experiences do not prove a relationship exist.
In other words, your "relationship" may be one sided.

And perhaps you should consider honestly reading the scriptures without filtering them through your sensibilities.
When the things in scripture become your experience, that is the confirmation. I'm not having experiences and fitting them within scripture. But what God does reveal in scripture is to be our experience. That is the essence of eternal life and knowing God.
If these were indeed your experiences, you wouldn't resist, but ask God for an even deeper and more intimate knowledge of Him. It doesn't mean you aren't saved, but it certainly suggests that there is more to eternal life than has been discovered to you.
On the off chance I'm right, ask God to find out.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
The Jews who were in bondage to Pharaoh in Egypt were totally under his control -- UNTIL God broke them out of prison!

Also, your analogy fails because no one can break out of or change their own nature. We humans have zero power to change our nature in order to become something we are not. (See Law of Identity and scripture.) The unregenerate are enslaved to their sinful nature, whereas the redeemed, by God's power, have BECOME something new -- a new creation whereby we are now slaves of righteousness.
Your philosophical speculations are not more authoritative than the Bible. Slaves are not fully controlled by anyone.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
Well said.
Slaves can be faithful or rebellious.
The slaves to sin are BOTH! They act out true to their own evil nature in their rebellion against God.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
Those who are setting their minds on the flesh (whether Christians or not) cannot please God. Both Christians and non-Christians have spirits and can set their minds at times on spiritual things that their spirit is sensitive to. You are confusing "unregenerate" with "carnal". Unregenerate means "does not have the Spirit of God". Carnal means "has their mind set on the flesh (i.e. in instinctive fight or flight mode)".
But the difference between the Christian and non-Christians is that Christ will not lose any of the sheep God has given them.. God will reign in his wandering sheep through his Good Shepherd. But Christ doesn't do that for the unregenerate non-elect.

Also, the Spirit that Paul talks about in Romans in not the human spirit but the Holy Spirit. Also, carnality is a mark of the unregenerate, whereas that is not the case with true Christians. Christians may stumble for a season but only until Christ brings them back to the sheepfold.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
Your philosophical speculations are not more authoritative than the Bible. Slaves are not fully controlled by anyone.
You're quite wrong. Read the book of Exodus someday. The ancient Jews were totally under Pharaoh's control.

Also, sinners in the bible are not only called slaves but are called prisoners. So I guess in your world, prisoners can bust their way out of their prisons at will, right?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
You're quite wrong. Read the book of Exodus someday. The ancient Jews were totally under Pharaoh's control.

Also, sinners in the bible are not only called slaves but are called prisoners. So I guess in your world, prisoners can bust their way out of their prisons at will, right?
Slaves and prisoners can plan escapes in their minds, whether their masters and jailors want them to or not. Prisoners and slaves can refuse to eat non-kosher foods whether their captors want them to refuse the foods or not. Masters and jailors do not wield absolute control over every facet of their slaves and prisoners. You have unrealistic concepts of slavery and imprisonment.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
But the difference between the Christian and non-Christians is that Christ will not lose any of the sheep God has given them.. God will reign in his wandering sheep through his Good Shepherd. But Christ doesn't do that for the unregenerate non-elect.

Also, the Spirit that Paul talks about in Romans in not the human spirit but the Holy Spirit. Also, carnality is a mark of the unregenerate, whereas that is not the case with true Christians. Christians may stumble for a season but only until Christ brings them back to the sheepfold.
No one denies that there are differences between Christians and non-Christians. But your understanding of the meanings of biblical words is somewhat confused.

Paul told the Christians at Corinth that the mark of their immaturity was their carnality.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
Slaves and prisoners can plan escapes in their minds, whether their masters and jailors want them to or not. Prisoners and slaves can refuse to eat non-kosher foods whether their captors want them to refuse the foods or not. Masters and jailors do not wield absolute control over every facet of their slaves and prisoners. You have unrealistic concepts of slavery and imprisonment.
Oh yes...slaves and prisoners have "lots of freedom" within their very restricted confines. :rolleyes: Prisoners are also free to bunk out in their cell when they want. They're also free to pace back 'n' forth in their cell when they want. They're also free lay on the concrete floor to do exercises when they want. But notwithstanding the rare exceptions of prison escapes, they lack the ability to break out of their prison. Do you think the ancient Israelites in Egypt could have just rebelled against Pharaoh and walked out of Egypt on their own without any divine intervention?