Understanding God’s election

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Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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The only "dogma bucket " I have is that physically dead people have no ability to do anything. (Common sense.) Ditto when it comes to the spiritual dead. God must raise up the dead before they can believe.

You don't know how...
Do you?
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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If you were totally depraved that would leave God with nothing to save.
[Eze 36:26 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[Rom 12:2 KJV]
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved
me and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:20

He crucified your body.

What does that leave God with?
I don't follow your point.

Tell me?

Is your soul (sans flesh) totally depraved?
Not after becoming born-again by God's grace- but not of myself nor by my works- I was made righteous solely by Christ's offering/sacrifice, which righteousness, He imputed unto me by His grace and mercy. God does it all, we do nothing but to be the unworthy recipients of it.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Faith comes from salvation; it does not lead to salvation. Becoming saved is first and is the gift of God.



No, it does not come that way. First the verse does not actually contain the word "comes"; second the hearing in view is
spiritual hearing, not physical hearing - spiritual hearing comes only as a result of salvation, not before; third
true faith originates from the heart (see Rom 10:10 below), it, does not start in the ears, and from the heart goes to the spiritual mind, by which, we spiritually hear and perceive- it does not occur in the reverse. Faith is placed into the heart only by the Holy Spirit (see Gal 5:22 below) upon salvation/being born-again. Until saved/born again we are spiritually dead in sin and therefore incapable of hearing spiritually.

[Rom 10:10 KJV] 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,



If we didn't already have faith, why would we desire to obtain faith, given that we didn't believe in order to want it.
IOW one must already possess faith in order to desire it.



Suppression of the flesh brings neither salvation or belief - it works in the reverse - first saved, and from that, believe. You obviously either didn't read or understand the verse I included in my prior post which explains that salvation is solely from God's grace alone.
If that is true (which it is), then nothing else in terms of salvation, can be co-equal to God's grace with all else being dependent upon it.

To make this easier, instead of me addressing each of the points in your post individually, why don't you read the verse closely and when you are completely comfortable with it, we can discuss it and its implications further. I think that it would provide us a good point of departure for discussion - top down rather than bottom-up so to speak.
So many read the scriptures irresponsibly and recklessly. You nailed it perfectly above. They don't pay close attention to the order of words or phrases in scripture. Eph 2:8-9 clearly places grace BEFORE faith. We're saved BY grace through faith when means faith is a byproduct of grace. And when Paul says "by grace", he saying more than mouthful since grace is the proactive expression of God's infinite love for his elect. And other things precede faith such as God's effectual call, the drawing of the sinner to Christ, regeneration, etc. And this is perfectly logical since the spiritually dead have no ability to respond to the gospel until they're raised up first. Regeneration is what "quickens" the soul.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,953
419
83
[Eze 36:26 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
New heart means transforming the way you think.
Getting a believer to transform his mind with Bible doctrine.

If you were truly totally depraved?
That would not be possible to do.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,449
267
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Genez said:


If you were totally depraved that would leave God with nothing to save.
So...the God who created the universe out of NOTHING doesn't know how to save the totally depraved? The totally depraved have stumped God Almighty, while at the same time possessing this "sovereign free" will that can overcome their total depravity. IOW, the totally depraved can do something that God cannot! Such a high view of God you have... :rolleyes:
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,449
267
83
New heart means transforming the way you think.
Getting a believer to transform his mind with Bible doctrine.

If you were truly totally depraved?
That would not be possible to do.
Explain why. Jesus said nothing is impossible for God! God raised the totally dead Jesus from his tomb but he has no power to save the totally depraved?
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,684
572
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New heart means transforming the way you think.
Getting a believer to transform his mind with Bible doctrine.

If you were truly totally depraved?
That would not be possible to do.
Did you see the "I will give you" and "will I put within you, and "I will take away", etc? It is God who is the "I'; we are not the "I".
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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New heart means transforming the way you think.
Getting a believer to transform his mind with Bible doctrine.
As you stated it that would actually be the changing of the mind, not the heart.
Anyway, a spiritually dead person is unable to change either the mind or the heart. As @Rufus said, they must first be given spiritual life, and with that, is all else changed.

[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,953
419
83
So...the God who created the universe out of NOTHING doesn't know how to save the totally depraved? The totally depraved have stumped God Almighty, while at the same time possessing this "sovereign free" will that can overcome their total depravity. IOW, the totally depraved can do something that God cannot! Such a high view of God you have... :rolleyes:
If you were totally depraved that would leave God with nothing to save.
Do you understand what totally depraved means? Totally.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,953
419
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When God created man in His image?
He granted man to have his own domain of sovereignty to reflect God's nature.

God honors man's divinely conceived design - to have sovereignty in a limited realm... so much?
That God will not over ride a man's (soul's) volition.
For man is sovereign when he chooses to reject God.
God will not over ride a man's choice if its not what God would prefer.

Just like when Lucifer chose to reject God.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,953
419
83
As you stated it that would actually be the changing of the mind, not the heart.
Anyway, a spiritually dead person is unable to change either the mind or the heart. As @Rufus said, they must first be given spiritual life, and with that, is all else changed.

[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
The heart (kardia) is a function of the mind.
The mind (nous) is also a function of the mind.

The Greek - nous - in the Bible is called the mind.
It is the part of your mind where a man takes in facts and details and are stored in memory.

The kardia (heart) is the part of the mind where a person has made his conclusions and convictions about life

A man THINKs with his heart. Its not about human emotions, though what you think in your heart
can cause one to have an emotional response.

“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." Proverbs 23:7a.​
You said in your heart: “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the
stars of God. I will sit on the mount of assembly, in the far reaches of the north." Isaiah 14:13​

Too many are yet confused as to how the word "heart" was used by the ancients.

A new heart will be a heart that God instills with new thinking within!
Instills with the Word of God, which will transform him away from his old way of thinking.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,684
572
113
The heart (kardia) is a function of the mind.
The mind (nous) is also a function of the mind.

The Greek - nous - in the Bible is called the mind.
It is the part of your mind where a man takes in facts and details and are stored in memory.

The kardia (heart) is the part of the mind where a person has made his conclusions and convictions about life

A man THINKs with his heart. Its not about human emotions, though what you think in your heart
can cause one to have an emotional response.

“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." Proverbs 23:7a.​
You said in your heart: “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the
stars of God. I will sit on the mount of assembly, in the far reaches of the north." Isaiah 14:13​

Too many are yet confused as to how the word "heart" was used by the ancients.

A new heart will be a heart that God instills with new thinking within!
Instills with the Word of God, which will transform him away from his old way of thinking.
It's difficult to reply to you because you seem to contradict yourself. Your last two sentences
say what I have been saying (I think), that: "a new heart will be a heart that God instills". Exactly. And:
"Instills the Word of God, which will transform him away from his old way of thinking". Exactly.
Yet, you also say, "the heart is a function of the mind". So, I am unable to decipher what it is you actually think.

Anyway, things spiritual are of/by God, not man. It is God who must give a new heart and a renewed mind.
A spiritually corrupt heart (old heart) is incapable of changing itself, and a spiritually corrupt mind (old mind), is incapable of changing itself. How can that which is completely corrupt and dead spiritually, uncorrupt itself or give itself life? With what does the corrupt fix the corrupt? Something/someone external (God), must first intervene to make that occur.

Maybe this will illustrate it more clearly for you. Those below heard and considered the gospel but not having been given faith, the gospel had no meaning nor significance to them. Therefore, since faith is not of the mind, nor of the ear (they heard and thought yet didn't believe), the gospel didn't profit them. Receiving a faith in the heart given by God, is prerequisite to comprehending the gospel. Of himself, natural (unsaved) man is incapable of doing that.

[Heb 4:2 KJV] 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,449
267
83
New heart means transforming the way you think.
Getting a believer to transform his mind with Bible doctrine.

If you were truly totally depraved?
That would not be possible to do.
So in your world a person's heart is only the center of their cognitive powers? That's it? What about the rest of our faculties? Where are they located?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,953
419
83
It's difficult to reply to you because you seem to contradict yourself. Your last two sentences
say what I have been saying (I think), that: "a new heart will be a heart that God instills". Exactly. And:
"Instills the Word of God, which will transform him away from his old way of thinking". Exactly.
Yet, you also say, "the heart is a function of the mind". So, I am unable to decipher what it is you actually think.
The heart is the function of your overall "thinking process."
How your mind reasons and believes is revealed in your heart.

You want to go on with that?

You really don't get it?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,449
267
83
It's difficult to reply to you because you seem to contradict yourself. Your last two sentences
say what I have been saying (I think), that: "a new heart will be a heart that God instills". Exactly. And:
"Instills the Word of God, which will transform him away from his old way of thinking". Exactly.
Yet, you also say, "the heart is a function of the mind". So, I am unable to decipher what it is you actually think.

Anyway, things spiritual are of/by God, not man. It is God who must give a new heart and a renewed mind.
A spiritually corrupt heart (old heart) is incapable of changing itself, and a spiritually corrupt mind (old mind), is incapable of changing itself. How can that which is completely corrupt and dead spiritually, uncorrupt itself or give itself life? With what does the corrupt fix the corrupt? Something/someone external (God), must first intervene to make that occur.

Maybe this will illustrate it more clearly for you. Those below heard and considered the gospel but not having been given faith, the gospel had no meaning nor significance to them. Therefore, since faith is not of the mind, nor of the ear (they heard and thought yet didn't believe), the gospel didn't profit them. Receiving a faith in the heart given by God, is prerequisite to comprehending the gospel. Of himself, natural (unsaved) man is incapable of doing that.

[Heb 4:2 KJV] 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
Great post! So many here seem to think that even though Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall badly broken, he can not stand up but put himself back on the wall from whence he fell. We clay vessels are so powerful....:rolleyes:
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,953
419
83
So in your world a person's heart is only the center of their cognitive powers? That's it? What about the rest of our faculties? Where are they located?
Why can't you ever get just the one point?

But always hopping to another Lilly pad.

You distract yourself?
You are not allowed to concentrate, it seems.

Who/what is distracting you all the time?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,953
419
83
Great post! So many here seem to think that even though Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall badly broken, he can not stand up but put himself back on the wall from whence he fell. We clay vessels are so powerful....:rolleyes:

The clay is what God molds on the wheel of life's circumstances that He arranges.

Two lumps of clay can be placed under the same pressures.
One will turn out good.
One will not ....

Both faces the same pressures designated by God.
One that turns out noble leaves the other to be without excuse.

God uses the winner's testimony as a witness against the loser.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,449
267
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Why can't you ever get just the one point?

But always hopping to another Lilly pad.

You distract yourself?
You are not allowed to concentrate, it seems.

Who/what is distracting you all the time?
Why don't you answer my straightforward questions? Do you believe the heart is the seat of only the mind? And if so, where do man's other faculties reside? (This latter question presumes you know what all our faculties are.)
 

MeowFlower

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2024
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