The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

Pilgrimshope · Nov 26, 2024

Yes all true

God guides us.

Yes sister he tells us the truth so we o ow which to choose like this

“And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s how god guides us, but not if we believe this instead

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-5‬ ‭

God has always spoken to man that’s how he guides us . Notice only man conmunicates with words like God does ? It’s how he’s guiding us he’s always been he guided cain as well but cain rejected him and chose another answer to his problem

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭

he does indeed guide us he’s been telling us the truth from the beginning
Sister I’ve never said God doesnt guide us in saying hearing the gospel is our guiding light to follow.

for instance

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is God guiding us into all truth but not if we dont hear it for what it is like cain or Adam and Eve.

It’s never that God hasn’t done his part so we can choose good , it’s tbat we keep choosing evil because we’re corrupted by the world and temptations of the devil in our lives . God is always there but some never reach out for him he’s there with open arms for mankind inviting us all

“and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; ( this was all planned and determined by him sis for the following purpose )

that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: ( his plan for nations in place and time so that we could reach out and find him who’s near to us all )

for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring….

‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:26-28, 30-31‬ ‭

What I’m saying sister is God guides us and helps us and strengthens us with his word. Changes us with his word just like he spoke in the beginning

“For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭5:42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ,

and him crucified.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭

sister my point in quoting these

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:35‬ ‭

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1, 3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true,

and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ.

This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:

It’s all about hearing and believing the gospel sister even when it reaches us to repent or to change our ways he’s patient and forebearing calling us to repentance

He soeaks to guide us and we either need and accept his word because we believe . Or we hear it and choose other things we’ve heard rather than the gospel Jesus sent forth to save and redeem us

I’m not saying God doesn’t help or give us strength or enable us , I’m saying that’s all in believing the gospel and learning about Jesus

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s calling sinners to repentance with his words in the gospel is what I’m saying I personally don’t believe he’s going to do more now to enable one man to believe and another not to believe

He did that to israel because they foret rejected him and defiled all his many merciful chances so he could choose another people

Magenta · Nov 26, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

Yes, but how can we hear without ears to hear? People were told to circumcise their ears. They were commanded to circumcise their hearts too. Then God said He would do it. Jesus came to give sight to the blind, unstop the ears of the deaf, etc etc it is not all physical, He raises people to new life, that is done for us, our hearts are circumcised specifically so we may love God, the natural man is incapable of obeying, that is explicitly stated, cannot hear or receive, they are blinded, then, God gives them a new heart, and they can choose rightly from their new heart, whereas the natural man is hostile to God.

decipher · Nov 27, 2024

GWH said:

There are no requirements for salvation because God does it all. 1 Cor 1: 29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of (by) Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of (by) God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption; That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
That means such ideas like: I made the right decision, I made it, I did the right things, I believed the right things, and it was I who chose to believe will be preventing people from being in His presence (entering heaven).

Magenta · Nov 27, 2024

cit
Thank you for the inspiration @Pilgrimshope ! I hope you and yours are well .

This is the first time posting and will likely change a bit over time...

heh, that collar bone looks too sharp!

I had started it with Philippians 1:29a and Romans 8:17b, but switched it to Colossians after posting that verse earlier.

GWH · Nov 27, 2024

decipher said:

Because "God does it all" (1CR 1:29-31), then because God loves all (JN 3:16, 1TM 2:3-4), all are saved.
That is a happy thought

, but not Scriptural

.
The implied hermeneutical need is to harmonize these two passages so they are not contradictory. Do you want to go first?

mailmandan · Nov 27, 2024

Lamar said:

So, you are still not convinced that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous? Do you not believe that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God? (Romans 4:2-3)

There is a difference between receiving a blessing based on obedience/works and receiving the gift of eternal life based on faith and not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

So, you believe that James 2:24 negates Romans 4:2-6? Read it with me. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: This is all encompassing in nature.

When Paul uses the term "justified" he is describing the legal (judicial) act of God by which he accounts the believer as righteous. (Romans 4:2-6) James, however, is using the term "justified" to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works they do. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect harmony. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) I see your error as failing to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine which creates a contradiction in scripture.

Romans 4:2-6 and Ephesians 2:8,9 are crystal clear. Why are you determined to believe that man is saved by works in contradiction to scripture? (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Greek word for justified "dikaioo" Strongs #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)

*Fits the context.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. *Hermeneutics.

Greek word for justified "dikaioo" Strongs #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

*Fits the context.

Of course not and the Bible nowhere implies that faith that saves is faith in a "different" Jesus and our faith must trust 100% in the real Jesus for salvation or else we are 100% lost.

So, you believe that faith cannot save until you attach obedience/works to it? Perhaps you are confused with James 2:22-23. In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Roman Catholics make the same error. They re-define faith to "include" obedience/works and basically end up defining faith "as" obedience/works. I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who made this statement to me below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and end up trying to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Work-salvationists will basically take faith and works, wrap them both up in a package, yet simply stamp "faith" on the package. The end result is works-righteousness.

GWH · Nov 27, 2024

If I may try to be helpful at this point: Accepting Jesus as Christ and Lord implies the reason that the kerygma is stated in terms of believing right and behaving right. We can harmonize these two categories of teachings by understanding that right or saving faith precedes and produces good works or working faith that loves.

The priority of faith is indicated by James 2:17, which says that “faith by itself, if it is not accompanied [manifested] by action, is dead.” And Paul (in GL 5:6) states, “the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” Ephesians 2:8-9, which emphasizes salvation by grace through faith, is followed in verse 10 by: “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works.”

In other words, right faith in God/Christ is the horse that pulls a cartload of good works. Good or loving works are significant as the sign of saving faith, but we should never put the cart before the horse.

A person who claims to be a Christian, but who seems selfish and unloving, may be making a false profession; but no particular work—even including outward confession and water baptism—is necessary in order to be saved and to become a Christian.

Saving faith: motivates good works = is manifested by the fruit of the Holy Spirit (GL 5:22-23)

mailmandan · Nov 27, 2024

GWH said:

If I may try to be helpful at this point: Accepting Jesus as Christ and Lord implies the reason that the kerygma is stated in terms of believing right and behaving right. We can harmonize these two categories of teachings by understanding that right or saving faith precedes and produces good works or working faith that loves.

The priority of faith is indicated by James 2:17, which says that “faith by itself, if it is not accompanied [manifested] by action, is dead.” And Paul (in GL 5:6) states, “the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” Ephesians 2:8-9, which emphasizes salvation by grace through faith, is followed in verse 10 by: “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works.”

In other words, right faith in God/Christ is the horse that pulls a cartload of good works. Good or loving works are significant as the sign of saving faith, but we should never put the cart before the horse.

A person who claims to be a Christian, but who seems selfish and unloving, may be making a false profession; but no particular work—even including outward confession and water baptism—is necessary in order to be saved and to become a Christian.

Saving faith: motivates good works = is manifested by the fruit of the Holy Spirit (GL 5:22-23)

Well said and you nailed it when you said we should never put the cart before the horse.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 27, 2024

Magenta said:

“Yes, but how can we hear without ears to hear? “

Like this notice there’s no magic involved

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live;

and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

why would we respond telling him we’re not capable until he makes us come near and listen to him ?

Sister the word is preached to all creation

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ( the audience )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you want to know why some don’t believe when they hear look at this parable

“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

( is this because God failed to make then hear ? Or did they openly reject the invite ?)

Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. ( the called and chosen rejected the invite so then everyone’s invited )

Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. ( preach the gospel to everyone )

So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: ( all creation that believes and doesn’t reject the gospel as they did ) and the wedding was furnished with guests.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:2-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If God has to make a person hear him , then they don’t , is it his fault when they do evil because he didn’t allow them to hear him ?

how can Gods choice of who is allowed to hear him and repent and obey , line up with him judging people based on thier own deeds ?

This wouldnt be like God he’s just and fair always it’s his character . When you read of things he’s doing there’s always context and provocation beforehand. He blinded and made israel dead because ofnthier rejection first of him it happens with Christian’s also . If we reject the word of Christ enough it becomes as though we can’t hear it

“that this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭30:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so

“but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:2‬ ‭

Its not that he made them by his Will rebellious and didn’t allow them to hear he’s responding because they rejected him continually now it’s this

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:23‬ ‭

if God is the one determine who can hear Jesus and everyone who doesn’t hear him is destroyed then God responsible for everyone who is lost ?

If they aren’t able to hear why is he basing everything on who will hear Jesus ?

People have the ability to hear Gods word it’s why he gave it in a man’s form so we can read and know and hear and speak it . There’s no magic button that makes one guy hear Gods word and another man not able to

awe choose when we hear it sometimes a man loves money and power more and so he hears Jesus calling for that lust to be put away and he rejects that idea like the rich man who went away when Jesus spoke to him about giving away his possessions

the giys heart was filled with greed and love of possessions worldly things . He was oreeented with Gods word but when he heard it it wasn’t valuable to him it was going to cost him half his possessions and he chose to go away Not because he didn’t hear Jesus , but because he did hear what Jesus said and didn’t like it

a everyone can hear but some don’t agree and accept it and believe

GWH · Nov 27, 2024

mailmandan said:

Thanks! ...Lamar?

Magenta · Nov 27, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

Good morning! People don't believe because all are sinners, none are righteous, all have turned away, once you sin you are a slave to sin, blinded, deaf, incapable of obeying, captive to the will of the devil. Those things are all explicitly stated in Scripture, I keep listing them. God is required to circumcise a person's heart. It isn't that people do not hear, but what good is hearing without comprehension or acceptance? The natural man CANNOT accept. People hear so much and maybe contemplate some of it and incorporate a bit of this here and a bit of that there... their god is not the one true God. Mental assent is not enough either, one must be fully convinced and know to the depths of their heart, and how can that happen without God's direct intervention, we see it all the time, people wondering if they are really saved, almost to the point of being tortured, we pray for that person for God to reveal Himself that they may know, yes, blessed are those who have not seen, but still believe, but that does not mean God had nothing to do with it either as some would assert (I am not saying you say this, but there are those who say God is not required at all to move one to belief. Which flies in the face of Scripture).

Magenta · Nov 27, 2024

I am still going to use the verses on a panel that I had started that last panel with...

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him...

HeIsHere · Nov 27, 2024

GWH said:

Metanoia in the original language means a change of mind, away from one held belief towards a new belief.
It is not a biblical word, it was used in other literature.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 27, 2024

Magenta said:

@Good morning! People don't believe because all are sinners, none are righteous, all have turned away, once you sin you are a slave to sin”

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They can’t can’t hear him ?

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:

repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they can’t hear him though ?

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Cain couldn’t hear him ?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

sinners can’t hear him how could a sinner ever be saved if they can’t hear God telling them how to be saved from their sin ?

Magenta · Nov 27, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

@Good morning! People don't believe because all are sinners, none are righteous, all have turned away, once you sin you are a slave to sin”

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They can’t can’t hear him ?

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:

repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they can’t hear him though ?

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Cain couldn’t hear him ?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

sinners can’t hear him how could a sinner ever be saved if they can’t hear God telling them how to be saved from their sin ?

Of course they can hear that but what good is hearing without comprehension they cannot serve two masters... and how can they obey? they are incapable of obeying Scripture explicitly states that. I'm at work right now I'm just starting...

GWH · Nov 27, 2024

HeIsHere said:

So, did the biblical word translated as repent or repentance some 20 times in the NIV mean something different?

HeIsHere · Nov 27, 2024

mailmandan said:

You are making an assumption the save here is connected to spiritual salvation, how can do you know that is it correct understanding of the word in context?

As well, agree, to claim something is not inherently a lie.
I can claim to have a Maserati that does not mean I do not have one.
In the case of this claim I could substantiate the claim by various means if it were in fact true.

Is this not the point James is making as we go into the next verse, that the visible work of charity gives evidence of the inner life of faith?

Faith is not a concrete object .. James is telling his audience to demonstrate their faith.

You are making an assumption that "save" here is connected to spiritual salvation, how can do you know that is it correct understanding of the word in context?

If he was concerned about their spiritual salvation where is the Gospel in the letters?
It is not there because he is addressing them as having been spiritually saved.

HeIsHere · Nov 27, 2024

GWH said:

I am not sure what you are asking. If the word is "metanoia" is in the Greek then that is the meaning.

If you want to know about paenitentia and how Justin Martyr wrongly translated the word we can look at that too, since we are hoping to build consensus.

Iconoclast · Nov 27, 2024

Beckworth said:

The question was what is needed for justification, it is only to believe in the person and work of Christ.....

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

mailmandan · Nov 27, 2024

Iconoclast said:

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Not faith and works)

The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

Well-known member

Senior Member

Member

Senior Member

Groovy

Senior Member

Groovy

Senior Member

Well-known member

Groovy

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Groovy

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member