Understanding God’s election

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Kroogz

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HeIsHere said:
Wrong again ..Jesus never states regeneration before belief.
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Just think. If (and it's not) their order is right, regeneration THEN belief. There would be a regenerated UNBELIEVER.For a minute? For a second? For a nano second? No matter what, there would be a time that there would be an unbelieving born again individual in their theology. Nonsense. That simply nullifies His Gospel.

Believe and then you shall be saved............ a believer all the way through the process.
 
K

Kroogz

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HeIsHere said:
That really is not the full message, you left out the personal component.
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What do they tell an unbeliever who asks them," What must I do to be saved?"

It's a grim message if they tell the unbeliever what they have been espousing on this thread. And most of them KNOW the conundrum they are in.
 
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brightfame52

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Kroogz said:
Just think. If (and it's not) their order is right, regeneration THEN belief. There would be a regenerated UNBELIEVER.For a minute? For a second? For a nano second? No matter what, there would be a time that there would be an unbelieving born again individual in their theology. Nonsense. That simply nullifies His Gospel.

Believe and then you shall be saved............ a believer all the way through the process.
Click to expand...
Its not nonsense,because one is regenerated in order to become a believer, which logically meant they were a regenerated unbeliever, until they heard with regenerated spiritual ears the Gospel of truth and believe, sancficiation of the Spirit precedes belief of the truth2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sanctification of the Spirit/regeneration prepares for the call of the Gospel, then believing
 
D

dougcho

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Genez said:
Calvinists teach and believe that God forces people to believe in Jesus. - Irresistible grace.
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I have posted the NT verses showing God gives FAITH to those He chooses
("I will bless whomever I wish and I will curse whomever I wish", etc.).

Jesus says Father God must DRAW (compel, drag) people to Him,
and these people He will accept.
"No one can (is able to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me
draws (Greek: compels, draws) him" (John 6:44)

Butski, IMO, these people still have the free will to reject this grace!
 
cv5

cv5

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dougcho said:
I have posted the NT verses showing God gives FAITH to those He chooses
("I will bless whomever I wish and I will curse whomever I wish", etc.).

Jesus says Father God must DRAW (compel, drag) people to Him,
and these people He will accept.
"No one can (is able to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me
draws (Greek: compels, draws) him" (John 6:44)

Butski, IMO, these people still have the free will to reject this grace!
Click to expand...
The sop of honor and fellowship: A legitimate offer of fellowship.....with Satan-Judas?
Or yet another hoax, fraud, cruel joke as the Calvinites demand?

[Jhn 13:26 KJV]
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.

[Jhn 13:27 KJV]
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
 
cv5

cv5

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dougcho said:
I have posted the NT verses showing God gives FAITH to those He chooses
("I will bless whomever I wish and I will curse whomever I wish", etc.).

Jesus says Father God must DRAW (compel, drag) people to Him,
and these people He will accept.
"No one can (is able to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me
draws (Greek: compels, draws) him" (John 6:44)

Butski, IMO, these people still have the free will to reject this grace!
Click to expand...
Action:
[Luk 23:42 KJV]
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Reaction:
[Luk 23:43 KJV]
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 
cv5

cv5

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brightfame52 said:
Its not nonsense,because one is regenerated in order to become a believer, which logically meant they were a regenerated unbeliever, until they heard with regenerated spiritual ears the Gospel of truth and believe, sancficiation of the Spirit precedes belief of the truth2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sanctification of the Spirit/regeneration prepares for the call of the Gospel, then believing
Click to expand...
If? really? If?
But what about the Calvinite robotic programming? Did it get hacked by mans free will?

[Jhn 13:17 KJV]
If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Kroogz said:
Just think. If (and it's not) their order is right, regeneration THEN belief. There would be a regenerated UNBELIEVER.For a minute? For a second? For a nano second? No matter what, there would be a time that there would be an unbelieving born again individual in their theology. Nonsense. That simply nullifies His Gospel.

Believe and then you shall be saved............ a believer all the way through the process.
Click to expand...
Love it, logical and scriptural.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Kroogz said:
Just think. If (and it's not) their order is right, regeneration THEN belief. There would be a regenerated UNBELIEVER.For a minute? For a second? For a nano second? No matter what, there would be a time that there would be an unbelieving born again individual in their theology. Nonsense. That simply nullifies His Gospel.

Believe and then you shall be saved............ a believer all the way through the process.
Click to expand...
Will there ever be an attempt to grapple with this, no.

The answer is always the same, "you do not understand how fallen man is"

Augustine over Jesus that is what I read on these threads.
 
cv5

cv5

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Kroogz said:
Just think. If (and it's not) their order is right, regeneration THEN belief. There would be a regenerated UNBELIEVER.For a minute? For a second? For a nano second? No matter what, there would be a time that there would be an unbelieving born again individual in their theology. Nonsense. That simply nullifies His Gospel.

Believe and then you shall be saved............ a believer all the way through the process.
Click to expand...
However it works, you have TWO PARTIES involved. Two wills. Two distinct consciousnesses.
And there is AGREEMENT and PERMISSION involved before entering into the New Covenant.

#1 party) God
#2 party) all men

[Act 17:30 KJV]
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


[Rev 2:21 KJV]
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Kroogz said:
What do they tell an unbeliever who asks them," What must I do to be saved?"

It's a grim message if they tell the unbeliever what they have been espousing on this thread. And most of them KNOW the conundrum they are in.
Click to expand...
Very telling and quite tragic really they can not clearly explain the Gospel.

It was a real eye-opener yesterday I cannot tell you.

It is very worrying how dominant this non-Gospel is.. if this keeps up the Gospel will be very hard find and those that know will probably be hunted down.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Kroogz said:
Jan 31, 2024
#171
Kroogz said:
What must I do to be saved?


ForestGreenCook
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Jul 8, 20188,4411,213113

If you are referring to eternally, nothing.
~~~~~~~~

At least he was honest about it. The non-answers from the other posters on this thread say a LOT.
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Well as horrible as this is, at the very least it is honest.U

Unlike the mangled supposed explanations and justifications which try to provide cover for the ultimate destination of the non-Calvinist but actually repackaged to look and sound better Calvinist doctrine
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Cameron143 said:
I'm not a Calvinist, and poor doctrine should be exposed. Unfortunately, all you have destroyed is your own witness as a Christian. Your denigration of individuals and misrepresentation of their ideas reflects poorly on you.
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Totally disagree...... if someone cannot explain salvation with fidelity to the very words of Christ Jesus it will always reflect badly on them. Being rough around the edges and dogmatic is far preferable if they have fidelity to the Gospel.

I think @cv5 teaches the Gospel in spite of a very hostile environment to truth.

You know it is very wearing to see this constant assault on the character of God and on the simplicity of the Gospel message.
 
cv5

cv5

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Yes, God commands us to seek and honors those who do.

[Psa 27:8 KJV]
[When thou saidst], Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

=============================================================================================

And we have a will that we can willfully align to His will......if we are willing.

[Jhn 7:17 KJV]
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

[Mat 12:50 KJV]
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
 
cv5

cv5

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HeIsHere said:
Well as horrible as this is, at the very least it is honest.U

Unlike the mangled supposed explanations and justifications which try to provide cover for the ultimate destination of the non-Calvinist but actually repackaged to look and sound better Calvinist doctrine
Click to expand...
Yes, that is what's "lurking in the shadows" deep within the bowels of the Calvinite dungeon.

Unbibilcal heretical fatalism.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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HeIsHere said:
You know it is very wearing to see this constant assault on the character of God and on the simplicity of the Gospel message.
Click to expand...
Are you still insisting that God is not fair and by doing so are assaulting the character of God?
You love your salty language but obviously fail to see how it applies to your very own self.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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HeIsHere said:
Totally disagree...... if someone cannot explain salvation with fidelity to the very words of Christ Jesus it will always reflect badly on them. Being rough around the edges and dogmatic is far preferable if they have fidelity to the Gospel.

I think @cv5 teaches the Gospel in spite of a very hostile environment to truth.

You know it is very wearing to see this constant assault on the character of God and on the simplicity of the Gospel message.
Click to expand...
I recognize that's how you view it. At the same time, there are those on the other side of the debate who feel the same way of your position. That always happens when emotions are engaged to a topic.
And excusing poor behavior is simply wrong. Unfortunately, the tenor of discourse can become animated at times. Yet we are all called to be peacemakers. The denigration of another is rarely an exercise of love, and this requires authority that no one here possesses over another. Also, the one causing the injury would only be doing so to bring a higher estate in the healing. If you want to believe that is the aim, you are free to do so.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Cameron143 said:
I recognize that's how you view it. At the same time, there are those on the other side of the debate who feel the same way of your position. That always happens when emotions are engaged to a topic.
And excusing poor behavior is simply wrong. Unfortunately, the tenor of discourse can become animated at times. Yet we are all called to be peacemakers. The denigration of another is rarely an exercise of love, and this requires authority that no one here possesses over another. Also, the one causing the injury would only be doing so to bring a higher estate in the healing. If you want to believe that is the aim, you are free to do so.
Click to expand...
Well calling people hypocrites and liars is that good or poor behaviour?
Just curious.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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HeIsHere said:
Well calling people hypocrites and liars is that good or poor behaviour?
Just curious.
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If your real question is whether I fail at exercising love at times, I do. If you want me to comment on the behavior of others, I already have. Poor behavior is always wrong. In general, the use of such terms, even if accurate, doesn't lead to peace.
We've all felt we have been misjudged or misrepresented. And we would all be better off trying to explain our positions more fully. But if that fails, it should be enough that the Lord knows our hearts. We should love our enemies, bless those that curse us, do good to them that hate us, and pray for those that abuse and persecute us. The extent to which we resist this is a reminder of just how little we are like Christ.
We generally think that people are placed in our lives to reveal truth to them. More likely, they are placed there to reveal the truth concerning us.
 
Genez

Genez

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dougcho said:
I have posted the NT verses showing God gives FAITH to those He chooses
("I will bless whomever I wish and I will curse whomever I wish", etc.).

Jesus says Father God must DRAW (compel, drag) people to Him,
and these people He will accept.
"No one can (is able to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me
draws (Greek: compels, draws) him" (John 6:44)

Butski, IMO, these people still have the free will to reject this grace!
Click to expand...


Faith comes by hearing! Romans 10:17

So faith comes from hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the [preaching of the] message concerning Christ.

Faith is the having the knowledge of what is to be believed personally by the one who chooses to believe it!

He does not compel, drag... in the sense of God being the Gestapo.

Romans 1:18-21 tells us that God even began the drawing of those whom end up being pathological liars and haters of God.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

SBS!
 
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