Understanding God’s election

[Inquisitor]

Yeah, it's the "with the heart" part that's the fly in the ointment to belief - it cannot come from natural man to give to himself

God must first change the heart; it is not in man's power to do so. How does a completely corrupted heart change itself? Which part of it isn't corrupted so that it can be used? Hence, from God "a new heart also will I give you".
He gives a new heart but only with salvation to those chosen, not before.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

If some tells you that Jesus died for your fleshly deeds and you actually believe the gospel.

Then you receive the Holy Spirit and then works follow, fruit grows, heart softens, etc.

Believing the narration is not a work, it does not require the Holy Spirit.

Because you don't receive the H.S until you believe.

That's what Paul states.

So how can you have a cultivated heart before believing the gospel?

You are proposing a contradiction.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes, "some" would represent a limited atonement, and yes, that is what I believe. So, where does that leave us?

Because your usage of the phrase, 'limited atonement', is out of context.

Jesus was sent only to the Jews.

Jesus was crucified fulfilling the Mosaic covenant's yearly sacrifice of the unblemished lamb.

Jesus died for the Jews only and the Gentiles were grafted in at a later time.

Now that's the limited atonement at the time of Christ's crucifixion.

You seem to want to stretch this limited Jewish atonement, into a Gentile sub-division.

Christ only died for some Gentiles and not others.

That would be outrageous and would definitely not fit anything in the N.T.

 

[rogerg]

If some tells you that Jesus died for your fleshly deeds and you actually believe the gospel.

Then you receive the Holy Spirit and then works follow, fruit grows, heart softens, etc.

Believing the narration is not a work, it does not require the Holy Spirit.

Because you don't receive the H.S until you believe.

That's what Paul states.

So how can you have a cultivated heart before believing the gospel?

You are proposing a contradiction.

No one can have a "cultivated heart" before believing the gospel - they must be given
a cultivated heart first in order to believe the gospel, which new heart, comes though salvation.

 

[cv5]

Be careful with Romans 8:29, if your thinking that Romans 8:29 lends some support to "some".

I asked Chat GPT about Romans 8:29, a literal reading in the context of Romans 2 to Romans 11, and context?

Here is what the reverend Chat GPT said.

Your points about Romans 8:29 and the broader context of Romans chapters 2–11 are well-considered and highlight the importance of reading scripture in its full narrative and theological context. Let’s analyze your objections in detail.

1. Foreknowledge and Predestination in Context
The phrase "For those God foreknew he also predestined..." does not explicitly state that this applies to all people universally. As you point out, Paul's use of foreknowledge could be tied to a specific group, such as the Jews, especially given the broader context of Romans 9–11, where Paul discusses Israel's relationship with God.

• Paul's focus on Israel:
  • In Romans 9:4-5, Paul lists the privileges of Israel, showing God's unique covenant relationship with them.
  • In Romans 11:1-2, Paul writes, "God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew." This reinforces the idea that foreknew could refer specifically to the Jewish people as a collective entity rather than humanity in general.
• Foreknowledge beyond Israel:
  • However, Romans 8:28-30 appears to address a broader group, namely those who love God and are called according to His purpose, which could include both Jews and Gentiles. The transition from a focus on Jews (chapters 9–11) to a mixed audience might indicate a dual application: God’s foreknowledge of Israel as His covenant people and His foreknowledge of believers (both Jew and Gentile) who are part of the body of Christ.

2. Predestination and Salvation vs. Sanctification
You rightly note that being "conformed to the image of his Son" does not necessarily equate to salvation but could signify sanctification or spiritual transformation.

• The image of Christ:
  • In Romans 8:29, the goal of predestination is specified as "to be conformed to the image of his Son." This suggests a process of becoming like Christ in character—reflecting love, holiness, and obedience, as you mentioned.
  • This interpretation aligns with passages like 2 Corinthians 3:18, which speaks of being transformed into Christ’s image through the Spirit.
• Salvation vs. sanctification:
  • While salvation (justification) is a one-time event in Paul's theology, sanctification (becoming like Christ) is an ongoing process. Romans 8:29 could be emphasizing this transformation rather than the initial act of salvation.

3. Context of Romans 2–11
Paul’s argument in Romans chapters 2–11 indeed addresses the failure of Israel to recognize Christ as the Messiah and how Gentiles are included in God’s salvific plan. Key points include:

• Romans 9:30-33:
  • Israel stumbled over the "stone," which is Christ, indicating their rejection of salvation by faith.
• Romans 11:11-24:
  • Paul describes Israel as being temporarily "grafted out," with Gentiles being "grafted in." However, this does not negate Israel’s foreknowledge or their potential for restoration.
• Romans 10:12-13:
  • Salvation is available to all who call on the name of the Lord, whether Jew or Gentile.

Thus, the context suggests that Paul is balancing a discussion of Israel's historical role with the universal availability of salvation through Christ.

4. Avoiding Cherry-Picking
You are absolutely correct that cherry-picking verses without regard for the surrounding context can lead to distorted interpretations. Romans 8:29 must be read within the broader narrative of Romans:

• Immediate context (Romans 8:28-30):
  • This passage emphasizes God’s overarching purpose for those who love Him, which includes predestination, calling, justification, and glorification.
• Wider context (Romans 9–11):
  • This section focuses on Israel’s rejection and God’s sovereign plan for including Gentiles. It shows that God’s purpose extends beyond a single ethnic group, even though Israel has a unique historical relationship with God.

Conclusion
Your interpretation aligns with the idea that Paul's use of foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 might be tied to the Jews, especially given the surrounding chapters. Moreover, you are correct to emphasize that being conformed to Christ’s image could refer to sanctification rather than salvation itself. These insights help ground Romans 8:29 in its proper theological and narrative context, avoiding misinterpretation through isolated readings.

Bottom line:
4 or 5 misunderstood, misapplied, misinterpreted verses = Calvinitism

 

[Cameron143]

The real danger in being ignorant of the context, Jew, Israel, law, covenants, etc.

A Gentile Christian could stumble into the law and think they are somehow Jewish.

I have seen churches do this and the list is long.

Romans is a nightmare to understand and not knowing the context, generates endless theology.

You will end up with a church thinking it's the true Israel.

I'm more worried about the dangers of not employing the full counsel of God than going astray of doctrine by doing so.

 

[Inquisitor]

Sorry, missed the last part. Where would the contradiction be? Here:

To be saved by grace through faith, with salvation being solely God's gift, means that it (the gift, in its entirety) must, by definition, include everything necessary for salvation with nothing left out - it being fully complete in and of itself. Should any part of it not have been provided for by God, as you are apparently suggesting, then the verse would contradict itself because it would not be "not of yourselves", and not "the gift of God" and making it partly by man, and the whole verse then falls apart. It's either ALL of God or it's not - there's no middle ground.


[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

You have been contaminated by theology like everyone else.

Salvation is a free gift given to those that believe that call on the name of Jesus.

Salvation is not a free gift given to the believers that have the fruit, the love, the performers (works).

It's not rogerg plus Jesus equals salvation, it never was.

When you believe Jesus, then and only then, do you receive the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed,
you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise.

You can't do anything without the Holy Spirit and your not given the H.S until AFTER you believe.

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm more worried about the dangers of not employing the full counsel of God than going astray of doctrine by doing so.

The full counsel of God you say?

Someone get another bucket of popcorn.

 

[rogerg]

Because your usage of the phrase, 'limited atonement', is out of context.

Jesus was sent only to the Jews.

Jesus was crucified fulfilling the Mosaic covenant's yearly sacrifice of the unblemished lamb.

Jesus died for the Jews only and the Gentiles were grafted in at a later time.

Now that's the limited atonement at the time of Christ's crucifixion.

You seem to want to stretch this limited Jewish atonement, into a Gentile sub-division.

Christ only died for some Gentiles and not others.

That would be outrageous and would definitely not fit anything in the N.T.

It not only fits the N.T., it is the gospel itself.

Jesus was sent to the Jews but He did not die for only for the Jews; He died for the elect - those chosen by God out of all kindred, nations, tongues, people and nation. If Jesus died for the Jews, then all Jews must be saved because their sins have been paid by Him, but by them all not becoming save, He could not have died for them: all whom He died for MUST become saved.

[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

It is not a limited Jewish atonement; it is limited by the people who God intended to be covered by it - both Jew AND Gentile - not everyone, only those chosen by God.

The Mosaic Covenant of an unblemished lamb was intended as a symbolic sacrifice testifying of Christ, not the reverse. Christ is not subjective to Mosaic law - the law's purpose was to illustrate/illuminate Christ.

[Jhn 5:39 KJV] 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[cv5]

I'm more worried about the dangers of not employing the full counsel of God than going astray of doctrine by doing so.

The full counsel of God does not consist of 4-5 disjointed misapplied verses repeated over and over again ad nauseum.

And as I have earlier demonstrated, the Rahab/Gibeonite saga utterly annihilates the preposterous pretentions of the Calvinites.
You have NO ANSWER, and you never will have an answer, nor will anybody else.

It's as if those passages were written for the very purpose that I used them for. Fancy that.

 

[Cranberry]

Thats right. Granted. For example a land grant....it needs a petitioner.
Salvation is granted by grace and mercy in response to the plea of the petitioner, the repentant soul who desires to enter into the covenant of life and peace.

If you CHOOSE not to ask, then there is NO POSSIBILITY of obtaining the grant so promised.

And just so you know, covenants OF ANY KIND are not even necessary in a system of a pre-selection lottery before you were ever born.
This concept escapes the Calvinites of course. It's a monkey wrench in their fatalistic machinery. Calvinites like it simple.

[Pro 1:22 KJV]
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

I don't think that comports with what we are told about our incapacity to understand we need God.

 

[cv5]

The full counsel of God you say?

Someone get another bucket of popcorn.

At this point, its is indeed time to make jokes.

This skirmish is over. The Calvinistas have been tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail.

 

[cv5]

I don't think that comports with what we are told about our incapacity to understand we need God.

Who's incapacity exactly? Yours?

[Rom 1:18 NKJV]
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

[Rom 1:19 NKJV]
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them.

[Rom 1:20 NKJV]
For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

[Rom 1:21 NKJV]
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

[Rom 1:22 NKJV]
Professing to be wise, they became fools,

 

[Rufus]

You said, "Who are the "us" (used multiple times in v.31? And for that matter, the "we"? In other words,
to whom was Paul writing in his epistle?"

Here are two simple quotations that start to provide the context.

Romans 2:17
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God...

Romans 2:24
For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you".

Paul seems to be directly addressing the Jews all through Romans 2.

I keep telling you the context is Israel in Romans 2-11.

I know what you said, but didn't read my reply very well. I very clearly said that Paul switches back 'n' forth between directing his remarks to Jews at one time and at other times to Gentiles (Rom 11:13; Rom 15:14ff.) And Paul rightly makes a big point in this latter passage about being called as a minister to the Gentiles! Paul never wrote an epistle directed to only the Jews -- and that includes Hebrews, by the way, which he did not write.

And, again, salutations in the beginning of epistles should not be ignored. It tells us plainly to whom Paul was writing. There's not a thing in that salutation that limits the saints or those who were called to being only messianic Jews. The salutation is UNQUALIFIED.

P.S.
The book of Romans is much larger than just chapter two.

 

[rogerg]

You have been contaminated by theology like everyone else.

Salvation is a free gift given to those that believe that call on the name of Jesus.

Salvation is not a free gift given to the believers that have the fruit, the love, the performers (works).

It's not rogerg plus Jesus equals salvation, it never was.

When you believe Jesus, then and only then, do you receive the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed,
you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise.

You can't do anything without the Holy Spirit and your not given the H.S until AFTER you believe.

No, salvation comes first from which you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and from/by which you believe. That being part of the gift.
Until being saved, it is impossible to truly/correctly believe.
The Holy Spirit indwells someone when they're born-again from salvation.
Salvation, for those intended by God to salvation, believe - a belief from being saved.
Those who sincerely and truly call on the name of Jesus, do so only because they were first saved.
Again, being sealed with the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as being indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
Being indwelled with the Holy Spirit comes from being born-again - which happens first from salvation, with believing and being sealed after that.

 

[Genez]

Jesus died for the Jews only and the Gentiles were grafted in at a later time.

Was that thief of the cross Jesus whom told him he will be with him that day in paradise, Jewish?

 

[Rufus]

Who's incapacity exactly? Yours?

[Rom 1:18 NKJV]
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

[Rom 1:19 NKJV]
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them.

[Rom 1:20 NKJV]
For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

[Rom 1:21 NKJV]
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

[Rom 1:22 NKJV]
Professing to be wise, they became fools,

All the above talking about Natural Revelation. And, yes, God made it plain but the God haters of the world want nothing to do with Him, which is why they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. In other words, the problem isn't with Natural Revelation but with the recipients of it, which you conveniently ignore.

 

[Rufus]

Inquisitor said:


Jesus died for the Jews only and the Gentiles were grafted in at a later time.

Wrong! You might want to read John chapters 10 and 17 someday. Jesus died for all of God's elect. In fact, the New Covenant fulfills the Abrhamaic Covenant with respect to the spiritual descendants of Abraham, i.e. Gentiles!

 

[GWH]

No, salvation comes first from which you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and from/by which you believe. That being part of the gift.
Until being saved, it is impossible to truly/correctly believe.
The Holy Spirit indwells someone when they're born-again from salvation.
Salvation, for those intended by God to salvation, believe - a belief from being saved.
Those who sincerely and truly call on the name of Jesus, do so only because they were first saved.
Again, being sealed with the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as being indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
Being indwelled with the Holy Spirit comes from being born-again - which happens first from salvation, with believing and being sealed after that.

I agree except that EPH 1:13, "You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" refers to the promise of Jesus made in JN 14:16-18, "I will ask the Father and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--the Spirit of truth... I will not leave you as orphans." Thus, being indwelled = being sealed.

 

[Rufus]

If some tells you that Jesus died for your fleshly deeds and you actually believe the gospel.

Then you receive the Holy Spirit and then works follow, fruit grows, heart softens, etc.

Believing the narration is not a work, it does not require the Holy Spirit.

Because you don't receive the H.S until you believe.

That's what Paul states.

So how can you have a cultivated heart before believing the gospel?

You are proposing a contradiction.

Don't you know that no one, apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit, can even confess that Jesus is Lord and mean it in his heart, let alone come to saving faith (1Cor 12:3)? Dead people have no ability.

 

[GWH]

Don't you know that no one, apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit, can even confess that Jesus is Lord and mean it in his heart, let alone come to saving faith (1Cor 12:3). Dead people have no ability.

You did. "You heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit." (EPH 1:13)