Understanding God’s election

[GWH]

I have never said man does not have a choice. Man chooses out of their nature. The natural
man is evil. Scripture says so and people scream about it and say man is not that bad.
The natural man is a slave to sin, blinded by the god of this world.
I do not agree that people are forced, try being honest.

Scripture says this:

DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”

MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

Thus, those who choose death, curses, not to be gathered, not to believe in Jesus, and not learn the Gospel truth and be saved are accountable for that choice and will reap the just consequence for their evil in hell. This view harmonizes God's all-lovingness with His omnipotence, which yours does not--beginning with a false choice between death and curses.

 

[Rufus]

strange Jesus was telling the sinners they needed to become as little children of never enter his kingdom …who would a thought ll those little
Kids were condemned …..

“But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:14-15‬ ‭

“and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

children aren’t wicked they are drawn towards God until they are corrupted by the world around them later and become sinners like adults are

Children are rebels from birth (Isa 48:8; Ps 58:3), as every inclination of their heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8:21). Children are born evil! Jesus made no exception for them in Mk 10:18! But at the same time, children instinctively know they must depend (trust in!) their parents for their welfare. This is why adults are called to be like "little children" so that they will trust Christ.

 

[GWH]

Children are rebels from birth (Isa 48:8; Ps 58:3), as every inclination of their heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8:21). Children are born evil! Jesus made no exception for them in Mk 10:18! But at the same time, children instinctively know they must depend (trust in!) their parents for their welfare. This is why adults are called to be like "little children" so that they will trust Christ.

Yes, and so they must suffer in hell?

 

[HeIsHere]

Your not making a distinction between what he said to Israel specifically about that people and what is said of everyone not under that covenant which blinded them

Calvinists seem to think every statement is a doctrinal statement.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Children are rebels from birth (Isa 48:8; Ps 58:3), as every inclination of their heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8:21).

Children are born evil! Jesus made no exception for them in Mk 10:18! But at the same time, children instinctively know they must depend (trust in!) their parents for their welfare. This is why adults are called to be like "little children" so that they will trust Christ.

“Children are born evil! “

wow ! That’s quite a view

ithose verse numbers your using to support what your saying are out of context for instance

“Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness….

thats who he’s talking to

…..Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:1…8‬ ‭KJV‬

This on no way supports that children are born evil God is speaking about Israel the covenant people who broke his covenant …..

This must mean any child who dies is lost huh ? Of they haven’t heard and
Believed the gospel before they die of cancer or something ? Or do we not even need to hear and believe the gospel at all since …..everything is already pre determined and God only saves a select group that have no choice either way are the evil children that die young headed to hell then ?

sad view you have of God and
Mankind…ps I would never mention this to a parent who lost a child

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, and so they must suffer in hell?

Calvinists have to find as many ways as possible to make sure only they are blessed with belief.

 

[HeIsHere]

Children are born evil!

 

[HeIsHere]

sad view you have of God and
Mankind

I will go further and say absolutely disgusting.

 

[HeIsHere]

“Children are born evil! “

wow ! That’s quite a view

ithose verse numbers your using to support what your saying are out of context for instance

“Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness….

thats who he’s talking to

…..Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:1…8‬ ‭KJV‬

This on no way supports that children are born evil God is speaking about Israel the covenant people who broke his covenant …..

This must mean any child who dies is lost huh ? Of they haven’t heard and
Believed the gospel before they die of cancer or something ? Or do we not even need to hear and believe the gospel at all since …..everything is already pre determined and God only saves a select group that have no choice either way are the evil children that die young headed to hell then ?

sad view you have of God and
Mankind…ps I would never mention this to a parent who lost a child

A rather superficial understanding of the scripture is my big take away with regards to those who are under this Calvinist lens.

 

[Genez]

I'll look into it some more. I don't know the reputation of WND. There are many on-line references to the work .

WND is (disliked) hated by Muslim organizations and LGBTQ, - Including, the same way towards Joseph Farah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Farah

 

[Inquisitor]

Children are rebels from birth (Isa 48:8; Ps 58:3), as every inclination of their heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8:21). Children are born evil! Jesus made no exception for them in Mk 10:18! But at the same time, children instinctively know they must depend (trust in!) their parents for their welfare. This is why adults are called to be like "little children" so that they will trust Christ.

Do orphans get tossed into the lake of fire for eternity?

 

[Rufus]

Yes, and so they must suffer in hell?

What other BIBLICAL alternative is there? I thought the demands of the gospel are faith and repentance? Or have I missed something? Are there more than one true gospel out there?

 

[decipher]

Absolutely correct, the Father and Son DO INDEED have distinct discrete wills.

It's just that they happen to always agree with one another.

Anything less and all of creation would collapse.

The Son always agrees with the Father's will because the Son obeys the Father, but the Father's will does not always agree with the Son's will.
Luke 22: 42 Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

 

[Rufus]

The Son always agrees with the Father's will because the Son obeys the Father, but the Father's will does not always agree with the Son's will.
Luke 22: 42 Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

So,

“Children are born evil! “

wow ! That’s quite a view

ithose verse numbers your using to support what your saying are out of context for instance

“Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness….

thats who he’s talking to

…..Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:1…8‬ ‭KJV‬

This on no way supports that children are born evil God is speaking about Israel the covenant people who broke his covenant …..

This must mean any child who dies is lost huh ? Of they haven’t heard and
Believed the gospel before they die of cancer or something ? Or do we not even need to hear and believe the gospel at all since …..everything is already pre determined and God only saves a select group that have no choice either way are the evil children that die young headed to hell then ?

sad view you have of God and
Mankind…ps I would never mention this to a parent who lost a child

Did Jesus make an exception for any category of humanity in Mk 10:18?

And is there another gospel hidden in scripture somewhere that pardons all infants, babies and young children who die? Are you saying faith and repentance aren't necessary for them?

 

[Genez]

Children are rebels from birth (Isa 48:8; Ps 58:3), as every inclination of their heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8:21). Children are born evil! Jesus made no exception for them in Mk 10:18! But at the same time, children instinctively know they must depend (trust in!) their parents for their welfare. This is why adults are called to be like "little children" so that they will trust Christ.

What a poor example of interpretation you present!

You snatch out of context, and then nail your desired meaning to it!

First of all. Did you know what Isaiah was dealing with?
Israel had become a nation of drunks!
Alcoholism was rampant!
They (that group) had been evil from birth because of the setting they had been born into!

You mix sin and evil together as if they are one and the same?
What sheer incompetence to do!

And?

Psalm 58:3?

READ what it actually says?

Even from birth the wicked go astray;​

from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.​

​

Those who are evil go astray from birth!
Evil people! It does not say all are wicked from the womb!

For it does not say...

Even from birth all babies go astray;​

from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.​

​

You do need to learn the difference between what sin is, and the difference what evil is.

Sin is anti-righteous in innately defective desires and action.
Sin also involves thinking when the law has been laid down as the means to restrain sin..
In a civilized society, sin is to be restrained and kept in check by law.

In contrast to sin ...
Evil is thinking with 'anti-truth' by inventing lies to defy the truth!
Evil finds ways to defy the law, and to justify oneself doing sin.

Sin is an instinctive action that we all share birth, caused by the inherited sin nature from Adam as it's source.

.........

 

[Cranberry]

If Adam didn't know he had sinned against God, why did he feel guilt and run and hide from God?

He did that after eating.

 

[Cranberry]

So,


Did Jesus make an exception for any category of humanity in Mk 10:18?

And is there another gospel hidden in scripture somewhere that pardons all infants, babies and young children who die? Are you saying faith and repentance aren't necessary for them?

If new life,children,are born evil what was the point of Jesus telling us unless we become like little children we cannot see his kingdom?

 

[Rufus]

What a poor example of interpretation you present!

You snatch out of context, and then nail your desired meaning to it!

First of all. Did you know what Isaiah was dealing with?
Israel had become a nation of drunks!
Alcoholism was rampant!
They (that group) had been evil from birth because of the setting they had been born into!

You mix sin and evil together as if they are one and the same?
What sheer incompetence to do!

And?

Psalm 58:3?

READ what it actually says?

Even from birth the wicked go astray;​

from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.​

​

Those who are evil go astray from birth!
Evil people! It does not say all are wicked from the womb!

For it does not say...

Even from birth all babies go astray;​

from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.​

​

You do need to learn the difference between what sin is, and the difference what evil is.

Sin is anti-righteous in innately defective desires and action.
Sin also involves thinking when the law has been laid down as the means to restrain sin..
In a civilized society, sin is to be restrained and kept in check by law.

In contrast to sin ...
Evil is thinking with 'anti-truth' by inventing lies to defy the truth!
Evil finds ways to defy the law, and to justify oneself doing sin.

Sin is an instinctive action that we all share birth, caused by the inherited sin nature from Adam as it's source.

.........

And the pagan Gentile nations that surrounded God's covenant were more righteous than Israel?

Sin is violating God's law. Evil is the ABSENCE of Good. Show me in Mk 10:18 where Jesus made an exception to who is good and who isn't.

 

[cv5]

The Son always agrees with the Father's will because the Son obeys the Father, but the Father's will does not always agree with the Son's will.
Luke 22: 42 Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

For one thing, I would not want to stuff hyperdimensional infinite holy Beings into a nutshell we create for them.
The reality is that this passage once again underscores the fact that INDIVIDUAL DISCRETE WILLS truly exist......even among the Trinity.

Thats the point IMO.

And this principle is EVERYWHERE in Scripture. Individual consciousness and true free will = true life.
Anything less and Satan is right.

 

[Rufus]

He did that after eating.

SO...before eating Adam was clueless? But after eating...not so much anymore because he actually felt genuine guilt AND FEAR! Wow! What a difference one little bite makes...