Understanding God’s election

[HeIsHere]

It is. But you are not.
The Calvinites have made this passage some kind of shibboleth.

The entire Bible is self-referential, and the ENTIRE BIBLE must agree with itself. And does.
But it does not agree with what the Calvinites are declaring.

A shibboleth (/ˈʃɪbəlɛθ, -ɪθ/ ⓘ;[1][2] Biblical Hebrew: שִׁבֹּלֶת, romanized: šībbōleṯ) is any custom or tradition, usually a choice of phrasing or single word, that distinguishes one group of people from another.

One thing for sure for Calvinites the Bible becomes a hot mess of contradictions.

Ultimately, all verses are NOT to be viewed as stand-alone, context-free, doctrinal statements, unless they are a clear summation of previous statements or the entire passage.

Such summations are common, today. The bible rarely employs them.

 

[daisyseesthesun]

The bible doesn't contradict itself. It's all right and correct. It aligns perfectly like a puzzle.

 

[Magenta]

One thing for sure for Calvinites the Bible becomes a hot mess of contradictions.

I notice you free willers contradict yourselves a lot, too. Gosh, for someone who squawks so much about inability you don't even know that Calvinism is not the only ism to teach it because you do not even know what it is. Just knee-jerk reactions to phrases you don't like devoid of any understanding because you don't do any real research to find out what is meant. Instead you just build straw men to knock down to impress your friends, huh? I hope someday you decide to educate yourself on the matter.

For Strict-Calvinists, total depravity means total inability.

Arminius taught the same thing.

 

[TabinRivCA]

I maintain all consistent Calvinists inevitably believe in double predestination.
They either believe God actively predestined some to hell, as Calvin does, or He did so by choosing not to offer what would have surely delivered them from hell to heaven, which is unconditional election and selective regeneration.

A tragic contradiction in Calvinism, that depicts God unlike the God of Scripture.
Babies are not born evil.

Babies are born with a human nature. They haven't sinned but display human tendencies. Sadly, most parents don't realize the importance of directing children in a loving manner from the start.

 

[Magenta]

It is apparent that what people are objecting to is their own made-up definitions instead of what terms actually mean.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the
Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will,
emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being
including who we are and what we do. Everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are
like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). We sin because we are sinners by nature.

Total depravity summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man.
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant,
some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption”
or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how
accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen
man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly
understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject
despite what those who refuse to educate themselves about it think and claim and all the verses they deny..

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that:

1—no one is without sin,

2—no one seeks after God,

3—there is no one who is good,

4—their speech is corrupted by sin,

5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and

6—above all, they have no fear of God.

So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach
that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions
so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12). source

Romans 3:10-12

 

[Magenta]

John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved

 

[Cranberry]

That gets translated/interpreted to mean we treat God like the loving Father He is to us, and we are His trusting children. .

Romans 8:15-16 You did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

"Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

I don't think your interpretation coincides with what is said in those passages Rufus shared earlier in post 3342.
I hope that is the correct post #.

 

[Magenta]

"Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

I don't think your interpretation coincides with what is said in those passages Rufus shared earlier in post 3342.
I hope that is the correct post #.

This is post number 3342:

Children are rebels from birth (Isa 48:8; Ps 58:3), as every inclination of their heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8:21). Children are born evil! Jesus made no exception for them in Mk 10:18! But at the same time, children instinctively know they must depend (trust in!) their parents for their welfare. This is why adults are called to be like "little children" so that they will trust Christ.

Rufus did say as little children we are to trust Christ. How does that not align with what I said?

One does not enter the kingdom of God by not trusting God...

 

[Inquisitor]

Then you are wrong. Read Rom 5 some day. Adam is the federal head of infants, toddlers, babies, kids, adults, adolescents, etc. None of these categories are entitled to a free "get out of jail" card.

Does that include two year old orphan girls, Rufus?

Would you condemn that two year old orphan girl to eternity in the lake of fire?

 

[cv5]

One thing for sure for Calvinites the Bible becomes a hot mess of contradictions.

Ultimately, all verses are NOT to be viewed as stand-alone, context-free, doctrinal statements, unless they are a clear summation of previous statements or the entire passage.

Such summations are common, today. The bible rarely employs them.

A total failure at cogent exegesis and loss of comprehension of the context and thought patterns of the ancient Hebrew passages that they abuse and distort. You know......King David speaking in aguish in the midst of his trials and whatnot.

Paul used them deftly with salvation in view, the Calvinites brandish them like fiery bolts of destruction in a bloodthirsty orgy of damnation.

You know....like this passage. To the Calvinites, this mean everybody has been intentionally damned by God before they were ever created. Which is of course is not the intended meaning being conveyed in this passage.

This wholesale damnation Calvinite view agrees with the accusations of Satan. Sick.

[Rom 8:7 KJV]
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[John146]

All things that come to pass includes the answers to our prayers. The Father in His infinite power can traverse His power throughout the history of humanity that includes past, present, and future. He is not limited or stuck in our present life like we are.

However, that's not biblical. Just look at the book of Jonah and Hezekiah's prayer for examples.

 

[John146]

The emergence of the RCC Calvinism and it's spread throughout seminaries is a clue to the end times as the body of Christ will fall away.

 

[Rufus]

Yeah I’m saying babies don’t and can’t commit sin , so they don’t need to have thier sins remitted ……

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

babies and small children don’t know good and evil they learn it as tbey grow up

“Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old, he will not depart from it.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭22:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then you are wrong. Read Rom 5 some day. Adam is the federal head of infants, toddlers, babies, kids, adults, adolescents, etc. None of these categories are entitled to a free "get out of jail" card.

 

[Rufus]

Yeah I’m saying babies don’t and can’t commit sin , so they don’t need to have thier sins remitted ……

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

babies and small children don’t know good and evil they learn it as tbey grow up

“Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old, he will not depart from it.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭22:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Can't train up a child to not have Adam's imputed sin on his soul! Read Rom 5:12ff.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

A lack of understanding is fixable, indoctrination not so much.

Yea that’s what I’m saying I think of we don’t know what happened in the ot to bring mankind to this place

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭

then it’s going to be hard to understand the law

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or the gospel

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, (they are Israelites ) that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-

I think the Bible is a comprehensive story of the relationship between God and mankind . But I think some people are jumping in near the end of the narrative and assuming things hadn’t progressed to the point they were when Jesus came forth

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Then you are wrong. Read Rom 5 some day. Adam is the federal head of infants, toddlers, babies, kids, adults, adolescents, etc. None of these categories are entitled to a free "get out of jail" card.

There’s nowhere in the bibke tbat says babies are condemned or evil and yes I’ve read Roman’s five as well as the rest of the Bible babies and children are never condemned in any way

But you are free to hold your belief as sad and unbiblical as it is.

“and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But ……..yeah I guess ….those darned evil children

 

[Magenta]

Yea that’s what I’m saying I think of we don’t know what happened in the ot to bring mankind to this place

It happened in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil, a fact which God knew ahead of time that they were going to do, as Jesus had already been purposed to pay the sin debt of the world. They lost God's covering when they disobeyed to sit themselves on the throne, and all of creation was affected/corrupted/subjected to futility. I wonder how many times I have asked others directly in a post to them or otherwise, meaning just an open question to the board, how many think Adam was bound to sin eventually because he was of the natural world? I don't think anyone has ever answered. And good morning!

 

[cv5]

The emergence of the RCC Calvinism and it's spread throughout seminaries is a clue to the end times as the body of Christ will fall away.

Word on the street is that todays seminaries are churning out "unbelivers" far more often than not.
Chronister opines that only a small fraction of Churches have legit believers at the helm.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Can't train up a child to not have Adam's imputed sin on his soul! Read Rom 5:12ff.

Yeah of course lol Solomon was just plain wrong because you misunderstand Roman’s five …. I wonder if there are any warnings bout that ?

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you need to read the Old Testament more or you’ll never understand what Paul’s talking about what actually happened ….

 

[Rufus]

It is apparent that what people are objecting to is their own made-up definitions instead of what terms actually mean.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the
Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will,
emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being
including who we are and what we do. Everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are
like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). We sin because we are sinners by nature.

Total depravity summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man.
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant,
some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption”
or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how
accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen
man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly
understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject
despite what those who refuse to educate themselves about it think and claim and all the verses they deny..

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that:

1—no one is without sin,

2—no one seeks after God,

3—there is no one who is good,

4—their speech is corrupted by sin,

5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and

6—above all, they have no fear of God.

So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach
that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions
so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12). source

Romans 3:10-12

Wow! I thought man was strictly under the control of his own "free" will. But now discover that he's under the control of sin! I'm going to have to run out to beg, borrow, steal, rent or buy a free will.