Understanding God’s election

[Genez]

Some people, including Calvinists, have a problem with the biblical doctrine of predestination because they object to the fact that the predestination of God's elect also logically implies that God willfully bypasses all those he has predestined to be eternal objects of his wrath. But isn't this what happened when God redeemed Israel from their bondage to the Egyptians? Did God, when he "came down" to "rescue" Abraham's helpless descendants also plan to rescue the pagan, idolatrous Egyptians? Or did God give explicit instructions to the Egyptians on how to participate in the Passover ritual so that their firstborn would be spared along with the Hebrews'? (Yet, the Passover Lamb typifies atonement for the sins of the people to whom the ritual was given!) Since He didn't, then clearly the Exodus narrative is a graphic depiction of double predestination! God chose to save one people (nation) while leaving the other in their sins. In fact, this is what Paul teaches about Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, Esau and Pharaoh in Rom 9. But before I get ahead of myself, consider this true-to-life analogy.

I love apples! This is the good news. The bad is that I don't love all varieties of them. I only really like McIntosh (Macs for short). I'm planning a shopping trip to the stores, so I plan on "rescuing" some Macs from their supermarket prison. In so doing, I have also implicitly precluded any possibility of choosing another variety of apple to take home with me. All the other varieties I have "predestined" (determined beforehand) to exclude from my shopping list and checkout items. My determination to buy just one variety logically implies that I have also determined to exclude all the other varieties. So...that's "double predestination". I never determined to buy all varieties or just any variety. (Or to state this in positive terms: I determined to reject all the other varieties.) I determined to buy only one.

Likewise, God determined in eternity to make only one of Abraham's sons (Issac) the heir to the promises He made to Abraham. Ditto for Issac's two sons! God determined to make Jacob the heir of the promise he made and reiterated to Issac. Both Ismael and Esau were deliberately excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant -- and therefore excluded from the nation of Israel and her Promised Land.

Let's say you were born July 10th, 1989...

You were predestined by God to be born on that day.

God predestined men to be born during the Church age.
He did not predestine Moses, nor Isaiah, to be born during the Church age.

Therefore, Moses and Isaiah are not to be the Bride of Christ.
They will be OT saints resurrected for the new earth.

In contrast to the OT believers...
God predestined for those who He chose for His Bride to be born during the Church age.
God did not choose David to be a part of His Bride!

In that way, God both chose and predestined us In Christ!
For Ephesians 1:4 says that we were chosen IN HIM before the foundations of the world!

Why Chosen IN Him?
To be what?
............................................. His Bride!

For he chose us IN HIM before the creation of the world
to be holy and blameless in his sight."


Ephesians 1:4​

Come on! Get it!

 

[HeIsHere]

As you should since you willfully ignore God's truth.

apple god at work, lol

 

[Cameron143]

Keep going down this path and you will have a morally ambivalent god because if God provides all this then He fails some of the time or He does not act for everyone, correct?

But you will not admit to this will you?

God, yes the One True God conditions salvation upon personal belief a personal act of trust in God's gift offering upon hearing the Good News!!

And while I am at it regeneration before belief is not established in scripture anywhere.

I never said God always provided these things. God's word goes forth and accomplishes what He wills, and never returns to Him void. It accomplishes what He pleases and prospers in the thing whereunto He sends it...Isaiah 55:11. Read the verse. God sends forth His word for specific purposes, and those purposes are always fulfilled...whereunto He sends it.
Hence, whatever the result, His purposes are accomplished. You simply believe every time the word of God is preached that the purpose must be salvation. It may be; it may not be. It may be for some and not others. But there is zero ambivalence: God's purpose is fulfilled.

Regeneration must come before belief due to the spiritual condition of fallen man. How can a blind man see the physical kingdom before him? Likewise, how does a spiritually blind person see the kingdom of God? He must first be born from above. This is what Jesus is teaching, and this is the point of Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14. How does someone who is spiritually dead comprehend spiritual things? They mean nothing to the individual because they are spiritually discerned, and they have no spiritual understanding.

 

[Magenta]

Regeneration must come before belief due to the spiritual condition of fallen man. How can a blind man see the physical kingdom before him? Likewise, how does a spiritually blind person see the kingdom of God? He must first be born from above. This is what Jesus is teaching, and this is the point of Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14. How does someone who is spiritually dead comprehend spiritual things? They mean nothing to the individual because they are spiritually discerned, and they have no spiritual understanding.

They twist the meanings of words, rip things out of context, make up doctrines nowhere taught in the Bible, and
outright deny what is explicitly written, which is that it is not by our desire (as Scripture plainly says) or by our
effort (as Scripture plainly says) or by our will (as Scripture plainly says) but by the desire and will of God (as
Scripture plainly says), due to His great love for us, His loving kindness, His mercy, etc, etc. A lot more than that
is written that they deny, which gets repeated over and over again, but they turn a blind eye and deaf ears to it all.

 

[GWH]

That's 2 people. I know plenty in the reformed faith who reject this. But I'm sure you know better.

It is good to hear that plenty of Calvinists/Augustinians have reformed. I hope their reformation aligns with Luther and Paul.
(I was raised as a "P" Calvinist or OSAS Baptist, but learning from Paul taught me to know better :^)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I honestly think people who bring babies into these types of convos are being manipulative.

And I honestly believe God is good and merciful and loving and just. And fair. Unlike you.

“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

and repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

and he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭7:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he is for sure just and fair to all mankind treats everyone the same way says the same things to everyone inviting them to believe and be saved

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Very.........like I have noticed most people shy away from going the full length of this doctrine, they (general "they" who follow this doctrine) know they have to end up here to be logically consistent most just avoid being honest about it.

Yes if the claim is all humans are born hopelessly wicked and with no ability to choose between good and evil , one would think a very appropriate and logical question would be about human babies

 

[cv5]

“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

and repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

and he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭7:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he is for sure just and fair to all mankind treats everyone the same way says the same things to everyone inviting them to believe and be saved

The fact of the existence of covenants themselves proves several things. Among them:
-God is purposefully interacting with fallen man with intent to this present day
-God takes the initiative for purposes of salvation
-God publishes and codifies these covenants for ALL THE WORLD to see
-God has a unique free will
-fallen man still possesses a unique free will
-post-fall man has the capability to recognize God and know Him
-post-fall man has the capacity for choice and decision making
-post-fall man may choose to serve God or deny Him

And BTW, mans capacity for FREE WILL and CHOOSING is that which inevitably leads to the DIVIDING that will come to pass after judgement.

Which of course PROVES that God is a just judge and no respecter of persons, and that He maintains flawless immunity contrary to the false accusations of Calvinites and Satan.

Therefore, the free will and capacity for choice in man DOES indeed exist, and MUST be core fundamental aspects of human beings at the time of their creation. By divine design.

 

[GWH]

The fact of the existence of covenants themselves proves several things. Among them:
-God is purposefully interacting with fallen man with intent to this present day
-God takes the initiative for purposes of salvation
-God publishes and codifies these covenants for ALL THE WORLD to see
-God has a unique free will
-fallen man still possesses a unique free will
-post-fall man has the capability to recognize God and know Him
-post-fall man has the capacity for choice and decision making
-post-fall man may choose to serve God or deny Him

And BTW, mans capacity for FREE WILL and CHOOSING is that which inevitably leads to the DIVIDING that will come to pass after judgement.

Which of course PROVES that God is a just judge and no respecter of persons, and that He maintains flawless immunity contrary to the false accusations of Calvinites and Satan.

Therefore, the free will and capacity for choice in man DOES indeed exist, and MUST be core fundamental aspects of human beings at the time of their creation. By divine design.

Yes, and the freedom to accept God's Christmas/Easter gift is not meritorious
(just as our kids do not earn the coal in their stockings :^)

 

[cv5]

Or did God give explicit instructions to the Egyptians on how to participate in the Passover ritual so that their firstborn would be spared along with the Hebrews'? (Yet, the Passover Lamb typifies atonement for the sins of the people to whom the ritual was given!) Since He didn't, then clearly the Exodus narrative is a graphic depiction of double predestination! God chose to save one people (nation) while leaving the other in their sins.

That post was quite a load of Calvinite condemnation-ism there man. Outrageous.

The FACT is that God DEFININTELY wanted to save the Egyptians like He does everyone else.
The TRUTH is that ANY first born Egyptian would have lived IF they were "under the blood" inside any
home that believed God and had the Blood of the Lamb on the doorposts and lintel.
And all any Egyptian had to do was to step out and BELIEVE God and take REFUGE from the coming judgement as God commanded.
And no doubt every Egyptian was well aware of what the Hebrews were doing in term of this ritual.
Moses was informing Pharaoh on an ongoing basis for pity's sake. THEY KNEW what was going down and they
DEFINITELY knew of the Passover that God commanded.

[Exo 8:1 NLT]
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go back to Pharaoh and announce to him, 'This is what the LORD says: Let my people go, so they can worship me.

[Exo 9:1 NLT]
"Go back to Pharaoh," the LORD commanded Moses. "Tell him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so they can worship me.

[Exo 9:13 NLT]
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh. Tell him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so they can worship me.

[Exo 10:3 NLT]
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, "This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: How long will you refuse to submit to me? Let my people go, so they can worship me.

[Exo 10:7 NLT]
Pharaoh's officials now came to Pharaoh and appealed to him. "How long will you let this man hold us hostage? Let the men go to worship the LORD their God! Don't you realize that Egypt lies in ruins?"

And you fail to understand that Jacob, Joseph and the Hebrews in Egypt were there as God's priests
meant to EDUCATE the Egyptians about Who the True God is and how to be SAVED.

And you fail to understand that the 10 plagues upon Egypt was a demonstration of MERCY in that they
proved to the WORLD the identity of the True God. All that Pharaoh had to do was AGREE with the Man of God Moses
and let His people go.

Furthermore, the 10 plagues set upon Egypt were those that RAHAB and the Gibeonites believed, and LED TO THEIR SALVATION.

So it is today. Untold millions throughout the ages have known and believed the Exodus account and have been saved according to the Word of God that codified the facts of the matter.

As for me, it was my research into the OT that led to my belief in the God of Israel so many years ago.

Despite your ghoulish lust for condemning all those you consider non-chosenites, God is a God of SALVATION and all that He does
He does in mercy and lovingkindness, even His judgements lead many to salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

It is good to hear that plenty of Calvinists/Augustinians have reformed. I hope their reformation aligns with Luther and Paul.
(I was raised as a "P" Calvinist or OSAS Baptist, but learning from Paul taught me to know better :^)

I'm not so sure you understood what Jesus said on the subject. He gives eternal life and no one can pluck them put of His or the Father's hand. Paul never says anything that contradicts this.
I recognize that there are verses that seem to suggest otherwise, but if the truly did say otherwise, scripture becomes untrustworthy.

 

[Rufus]

Well he certainly may have but I was not posting about that verse but about the question you asked regarding what it means to be a little child in relation to believing in God, which Rufus gave other verses for as well. I don't even think I saw Rufus's reply until you brought my attention to it. I had to go back a few pages quite a few pages to find it because you only gave me the number of it and not a link.

Correct. I explained the rationale behind Jesus using the imagery of a little child to gain entrance into the kingdom. Small children naturally and instinctively trust their parents for their needs; for they obviously sense their own helplessness and vulnerabilities to the big bad world around them. When we see a crying child running towards his parent, we should interpret his cries as calling out to be rescued.

But how many adults do these things with respect to God?

 

[Magenta]

Correct. I explained the rationale behind Jesus using the imagery of a little child to gain entrance into the kingdom. Small children naturally and instinctively trust their parents for their needs; for they obviously sense their own helplessness and vulnerabilities to the big bad world around them. When we see a crying child running towards his parent, we should interpret his cries as calling out to be rescued.

But how many adults do these things with respect to God?

Children also naturally attach to their parents, their mother especially since she is often the prime
care-giver... they may have no sense really of how bad the world truly is which is why the parents
play such a protective role towards their little ones, for they are much more aware of the dangers.

 

[HeIsHere]

The fact of the existence of covenants themselves proves several things. Among them:
-God is purposefully interacting with fallen man with intent to this present day
-God takes the initiative for purposes of salvation
-God publishes and codifies these covenants for ALL THE WORLD to see
-God has a unique free will
-fallen man still possesses a unique free will
-post-fall man has the capability to recognize God and know Him
-post-fall man has the capacity for choice and decision making
-post-fall man may choose to serve God or deny Him

And BTW, mans capacity for FREE WILL and CHOOSING is that which inevitably leads to the DIVIDING that will come to pass after judgement.

Which of course PROVES that God is a just judge and no respecter of persons, and that He maintains flawless immunity contrary to the false accusations of Calvinites and Satan.

Therefore, the free will and capacity for choice in man DOES indeed exist, and MUST be core fundamental aspects of human beings at the time of their creation. By divine design.

Thank you. I need to read this from time to time, it is fortifying!

This doctrine is hard to take.
It distorts the character of God, salvation is completely arbitrary based on God's whim, and they really do not care and/or deny it.

I think the most shocking idea I have learned in this thread is since people cannot respond to the Gospel (no will, no ability to believe) they are never told they on personal level need to believe in the free offer of the gift of salvation, rather one just waits to see who gets selected for regeneration/hearing/un-blinding etc., etc.,

 

[Cameron143]

Thank you. I need to read this from time to time, it is fortifying!

This doctrine is hard to take.
It distorts the character of God, salvation is completely arbitrary based on God's whim, and they really do not care and/or deny it.

I think the most shocking idea I have learned in this thread is since people cannot respond to the Gospel (no will, no ability to believe) they are never told they on personal level need to believe in the free offer of the gift of salvation, rather one just waits to see who gets selected for regeneration/hearing/un-blinding etc., etc.,

pfs...God never does anything on a whim.
pfs...as the gospel is God's general means of salvation, no Christian should neglect the great commission nor should any hearer neglect its call.

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="cv5, post: 5420590, member: 277646"]That post was quite a load of Calvinite condemnation-ism there man. Outrageous.

The FACT is that God DEFININTELY wanted to save the Egyptians like He does everyone else.
The TRUTH is that ANY first born Egyptian would have lived IF they were "under the blood" inside any
home that believed God and had the Blood of the Lamb on the doorposts and lintel.
And all any Egyptian had to do was to step out and BELIEVE God and take REFUGE from the coming judgement as God commanded.
And no doubt every Egyptian was well aware of what the Hebrews were doing in term of this ritual.
Moses was informing Pharaoh on an ongoing basis for pity's sake. THEY KNEW what was going down and they
DEFINITELY knew of the Passover that God commanded.

[Exo 8:1 NLT]
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go back to Pharaoh and announce to him, 'This is what the LORD says: Let my people go, so they can worship me.

[Exo 9:1 NLT]
"Go back to Pharaoh," the LORD commanded Moses. "Tell him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so they can worship me.

[Exo 9:13 NLT]
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh. Tell him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so they can worship me.

[Exo 10:3 NLT]
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, "This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: How long will you refuse to submit to me? Let my people go, so they can worship me.

[Exo 10:7 NLT]
Pharaoh's officials now came to Pharaoh and appealed to him. "How long will you let this man hold us hostage? Let the men go to worship the LORD their God! Don't you realize that Egypt lies in ruins?"

And you fail to understand that Jacob, Joseph and the Hebrews in Egypt were there as God's priests
meant to EDUCATE the Egyptians about Who the True God is and how to be SAVED.

And you fail to understand that the 10 plagues upon Egypt was a demonstration of MERCY in that they
proved to the WORLD the identity of the True God. All that Pharaoh had to do was AGREE with the Man of God Moses
and let His people go.

Furthermore, the 10 plagues set upon Egypt were those that RAHAB and the Gibeonites believed, and LED TO THEIR SALVATION.

So it is today. Untold millions throughout the ages have known and believed the Exodus account and have been saved according to the Word of God that codified the facts of the matter.

As for me, it was my research into the OT that led to my belief in the God of Israel so many years ago.

Despite your ghoulish lust for condemning all those you consider non-chosenites, God is a God of SALVATION and all that He does
He does in mercy and lovingkindness, even His judgements lead many to salvation. [/QUOTE]

If IF's and BUTs where candy and nuts, every day would be Christmas!

More wishful thinking from your overworked, spiritually-starved imagination. Show me from the Exodus narrative that God ever intended to save the Egyptians! Show me from the narrative where God told Moses that he's going to come down and rescue everyone in Egypt! Show me from the narrative where Aaron and Moses were sent to evangelize the Egyptians. Show me from the narrative wherein God also gave the Egyptians the same specific instructions for observing his Passover ritual that he had given to the Hebrews. God no more intended to save the Egyptians than he did Pharaoh himself! God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let God's firstborn go! Rom 9 tells us that God raised Pharaoh up to be the reprobate he was so that his power would be displayed in him.

In fact, regarding the Egyptians it is written that God CAUSED them to hate the ancient Hebrews!

Ps 105:23-25
23 Then Israel entered Egypt;
Jacob lived as an alien in the land of Ham.
24 The LORD made his people very fruitful;
he made them too numerous for their foes,
25 whose hearts he turned to hate his people,
to conspire against his servants.
NIV

So...these Egyptians whose hearts God "turned to hate his people" were always on God's salvation radar, heh, even though they had murderous hearts toward his chosen people? Seems to me they were more on God's judgment radar than his salvation screen!

It's utterly amazing how you non-reformed have no qualms whatsoever about making garbage up out of whole cloth to support to support your lies. You will not find a scintilla of biblical evidence that God ever intended to save any Egyptian. In fact, your theory is laughable given the fact that Pharaoh himself was a type of Satan and the nation of Egypt was a type of Satan's kingdom of darkness from which God "came down" to "rescue" his chosen people. God, through Moses (himself a type of Christ) did precisely what Jesus said he would to the evil one!

Matt 12:29
29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man ? Then he can rob his house.
NIV

This is exactly what God did to Pharaoh through Moses! He robbed his house! God "stole" from Pharaoh virtually his entire enslaved workforce! God even eventually "bound" the "strong man's" magicians, sorcerers and enchanters, etc.; for they reached the point whereby God neutralized the satanic forces that were working through them so that they could no longer duplicate God's plagues!

And why are you so ignorant of the scriptures!? You wrote above that Joseph, Jacob and the Hebrews in Eqypt were placed there by God to "educate" the Egyptians. That would really be funny if such a statement weren't so pathetically impoverished of any true knowledge of the events. Don't you know that the ancient Hebrews, over the course of 400+ years in Egypt, had for the most part become as idolatrous as their slave masters (Josh 24:14; Ezek 20:7-8)? Perhaps the lesson the ancient Hebrews were supposed to teach to the Egyptians is how the blind guides can only lead the blind so that they both can fall into the pit!

 

[cv5]

Thank you. I need to read this from time to time, it is fortifying!

This doctrine is hard to take.
It distorts the character of God, salvation is completely arbitrary based on God's whim, and they really do not care and/or deny it.

I think the most shocking idea I have learned in this thread is since people cannot respond to the Gospel (no will, no ability to believe) they are never told they on personal level need to believe in the free offer of the gift of salvation, rather one just waits to see who gets selected for regeneration/hearing/un-blinding etc., etc.,

Yes, the Calvinite dogma is BRUTALLY out of touch with reality.
The thing is, as this thread progresses, the truth does indeed become illuminated.
As does the true nature of the hard-core hyper-condemning Calvinites.

It seems to me that the Calvinites have much in common with the "bad" Pharisees. Many of them utterly lost their way and hated the gentiles and actually believed that gentiles were created solely for the purpose of fueling hellfire. They also believed in their OWN infallible chosenite-ness which they conferred upon themselves by their own criterion but not by faith.

And like these "bad" Pharisees, hyper-Calvinites seem to have lost their intended purpose: that being to
broadcast Gods LOVE for all mankind, MERCY and FORGIVENESS of sins by mean of a SURE salvation by the Blood of the Lamb, available to ALL THOSE who call on His Name.

See the similarities?

 

[cv5]

Sending out a DEFCON 1 Calvinite hyper-condemnation alert.

Take the necessary precautions immediately.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes if the claim is all humans are born hopelessly wicked and with no ability to choose between good and evil, one would think a very appropriate and logical question would be about human babies

The question is posed with some faint hope they may recognize the flaws in the doctrine, but I have noticed there are always the same stereotypical responses.

 

[Magenta]

Thank you. I need to read this from time to time, it is fortifying!

This doctrine is hard to take.
It distorts the character of God, salvation is completely arbitrary based on God's whim, and they really do not care and/or deny it.

I think the most shocking idea I have learned in this thread is since people cannot respond to the Gospel (no will, no ability to believe) they are never told they on personal level need to believe in the free offer of the gift of salvation, rather one just waits to see who gets selected for regeneration/hearing/un-blinding etc., etc.,

More of your despicable misrepresentation. But I suppose you cannot help it after all since you are blind and deaf to what Scripture says and those who believe and promote the truth of what Scripture says. You know? Like it is not according to man's desire (as Scripture plainly says) or by our effort (as Scripture plainly says) or by our will (as Scripture plainly says) but by the desire and will of God (as Scripture plainly says), due to His great love for us, His loving kindness, His mercy, etc, etc. None of this means we do not co-operate with God's will but many like you are eager to deny what Scripture teaches and love to pretend you have learned something shocking when what is shocking is your inability to grasp truth. But you keep pressing on promoting your deceptions and we get used to the fact that your heart is so hardened you really are as Scripture says, INCAPABLE, which that is just another something else you keep denying. Or you deliberately choose to be so hard-hearted and continue to deliberately lie about what those you disagree with say, but I guess I can extend some grace to you even after you have slandered me and grant that it is due to your inability and ignorance not deliberate.