Understanding God’s election

[Blain]

And we're choosing like never before in our life. After all, the Truth has set us free and Jesus has as well. Once we were free FROM righteousness; now we're free FROM the control of sin which makes us free TO choose what is RIGHT! Look at this NC age as a big dress rehearsal for the eternal, visible Kingdom in which all the saints will only be able to choose what is good, righteous and holy, since in that age all God's saints will be perfectly, completely and eternally conformed to the image of Christ.

I don't think you will enjoy the Age to come, since in your world, true freedom is being able to make choices contrary to our nature. But....all that is contrary to good, righteousness and holiness won't even enter a saint's mind; for the saints will be so overwhelmed by the majesty, glory, power and love of God that all we will want to do is worship him, praise him, thank him and serve him forever and ever. But you free willers will certainly feel like fish out of water in that age!

I choose to serve my king and to use whatever gifts he has given to do what he has commanded do you remember the parable of the talents? what happened to the one who buried it and did not use it? he was called a lazy and ebil servant is that what you want? it isn;t about our will it is about serving for the kingdom your so stuck on this predestined thing you only see us as free willers but you also ignor how we keep saying it is about doing what was commanded

 

[Inquisitor]

Nope. You keep using words I don't use as though I do. Selection is not election. When you learn the difference, you will have a greater understanding of God and His ways.

And if you are not going to allow me types and figures from the OT, then don't allow them for yourself.

Election, not selection, is clearly taught concerning Israel. God made a completely new and distinctive people who were not a people. This Jesus does for those of the new creation. They come into the world but are not part of it, just as God called Israel to be separate. Entrance into this kingdom is limited like Israel, but entrance is not through physical birth, but by spiritual birth. This is the reason that Isaac, a child of promise, was given to Abraham and Sarah when a natural birth was no longer possible. It was promised by God, and only God had a hand in bringing it to pass. I'm sure you believe God forced Isaac to be born, and forced Abraham and Sarah to have and accept the child against their will. Yet the Bible seems to suggest otherwise. They seemed quite happy about it.
Conversely, Ishmael was a product of the natural sinful realm. He was born by natural processes out of a sinful act. God had no supernatural hand in it, and rejected Ishmael.
If God chose between the 2 because of something outside of Himself, that would be selection. That isn't what happened. What happened was God chose to create Isaac supernaturally and place him into the human race, and had God not done so, Isaac would never have existed. That's what election is. God isn't selecting between people who already exist, He is bringing a people into the world supernaturally placing them into His kingdom. Without election, there is no creation of those in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now you know what election actually is, so perhaps you won't mischaracterize it in the future.

So are the reprobate those that were not elect?

If God chose Isaac then there were a million natural born babies that God did not elect?

You need to clarify more.

Did God elect Jacob and his 12 sons and were they spiritually born?

You are confusing.

 

[Inquisitor]

More stuff attributed to me I didn't say. Obviously not all of Israel was redeemed; neither were the 3 mentioned the only ones. Anyone reading Hebrews 11 would know this.
I didn't say whether Ismail was saved or not. I said he was rejected by God. Another shark jumped.
The juxtaposition of the rescue of the Israelites and the destruction of the Egyptians is clearly a picture of salvation and damnation. God brought life to one group and death to the other. Couldn't be any more clear.
But if you did read post#4065, you missed the point altogether.

I do not understand the difference between spiritually born and naturally born?

I know Moses was chosen so was Moses spiritually born?

If Moses was spiritually born how come he was rejected?

 

[Inquisitor]

Do you believe the death of Jesus Christ accomplished anything good for those who are in Hell?

The final judgement has not yet occurred so I cannot make a comment.

 

[HeIsHere]

LIke irresistible grace was made up...

Like limited atonement also.

Agree

The doctrine of Limited Atonement is heretical.

 

[HeIsHere]

Ephisians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

You were not sealed with the Holy Spirit until AFTER you believed in Jesus.

You did not have the Holy Spirit before you heard the gospel.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In Christ you have been chosen to be holy, blameless, and loving of others.

Before anyone heard the gospel of Jesus Christ were they bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit?

Yes we do understand!! They make "election" selection so that is why I call it selection.

Thank you.

 

[GWH]

Re "I have never claimed that faith is meritorious. I'm not sure where you got that idea. It is the opposite of my belief."

Why else would you refuse to ascribe the ability to seek and have faith in God to sinners? If it is non-meritorious, what's the problem?

Re "I do not ignore that A&E are examples of sin and Abe an example of faith. It is quite shocking how easily you lie.

Sorry, I thought that if you viewed Abraham as an example of saving faith for all to be erroneous that you would probably think the same about A&E being an example of sin for all.

Re "I never said the gospel message was foolishness to Abe. I don't know why you feel you have to make up so much crap.":

I inferred it from you saying that the natural/uncircumcised man--which Abraham was--could not believe the Gospel unless God circumcised his heart first, but Paul says Abraham had faith first before circumcision, so how do you avoid implying that crap?

Re "Blaspheming God. I never said He hated humanity. My God, what a liar you are to be so dishonest about what I believe."

What I said was that by denying the teaching that God loves and wants to save all people you implicitly ascribe to Him hatred of however many humans you think He does not elect to circumcise--and you did not say that you believe God circumcises everyone's heart just now, so how do you avoid this implication?

My amended understanding is this:

1. You agree with Paul's teaching that faith is a non-meritorious acceptance of Christ's work. It is the way God enables people to be saved.

2. You agree with Paul's teaching that A&E exemplify sin but disagree that Abraham exemplifies faith

3. You disagree with Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised,

4. You agree with Paul's teaching that the proto-gospel message was NOT foolishness to Abrahan, which is why he chose to believe it,

5. You seem oblivious to the implication that by ignoring Paul's teaching that God loves and wants to save all people, which means that He gives every sinner volition, thereby enabling him to seek salvation--or not, you ascribe hatred for the part of humanity whose hearts God does not circumcise so they may believe and be saved and effectually force them to go to hell.

BTW, it is wrong to say someone lies when they merely misunderstand you.

I think this reply blew by Magenta (that I worked on kinda hard :^)

 

[Inquisitor]

The entire nation God "foreknew"? Or just people in the nation he "foreknew"? Hint: read down to v.5.

The people He previously knew was Israel.

In the context requires extra verses.

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day.”

9 And David says, “May their table become a snare and a trap, And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.10 May their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs continually.”11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they?

Looks like all Israel to me.

26 and so all Israel will be saved.

Did they stumble so as to fall?

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

 

[HeIsHere]

Why else would you refuse to ascribe the ability to seek and have faith in God to sinners? If it is non-meritorious, what's the problem?

You probably know this if you have spent any time at all discussing Soteriology with anyone who has this Beza Bent (switching it up, I

think @Genez will appreciate it, lol) is because of their extreme determinism, their warped view of God's sovereignty and making every

person that ever lived a depraved, evil, immoral, monster incapable and unwilling to respond, from birth, to the Good News of Christ Jesus and His work on our behalf.

 

[Cameron143]

So are the reprobate those that were not elect?

If God chose Isaac then there were a million natural born babies that God did not elect?

You need to clarify more.

Did God elect Jacob and his 12 sons and were they spiritually born?

You are confusing.

That's correct. All mankind is not elect.

Can you explain to me the difference between election and selection?

 

[rogerg]

26 and so all Israel will be saved.

Did they stumble so as to fall?

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

"all Israel": Spiritual Israel - the Israel of God - those whom God had elected to salvation - not the earthly nation of Israel
"all": all those of the Israel of God

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Cameron143]

I do not understand the difference between spiritually born and naturally born?

I know Moses was chosen so was Moses spiritually born?

If Moses was spiritually born how come he was rejected?

Who said Moses was rejected?

 

[HeIsHere]

They have God treating people like a little girl playing house with dolls.
She makes them speak. She makes them do as she wishes...
She is sovereign over them.......

The thing is that this doctrine is known outside of Christian circles and it is a blight on Christianity, it is a lot of work to get people to understand that this doctrine is not biblical and not a true understanding of God in scripture.

 

[Magenta]

we keep saying it is about doing what was commanded

God's Word says the natural man cannot submit to God's law. God's Word says that we are enabled, which they characterize as being forced, and those given to Christ will come to Him. Perhaps they would call that a violation of their free will also. That is where some of the disagreement is, because quite a few here say the natural man can decide (using their free will) to obey God while the Bible says otherwise. The Bible says we believe with our heart and that the natural man has a stony heart, is a slave to sin, taken captive to the will of the devil, a lover of darkness suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, hostile to God. That is the person they have choosing to believe in and love God, and submitting to Him when the Bible says they are incapable. They kick up quite a fuss over this, telling lots of lies about what we believe simply because we affirm what Scripture says: The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Then they say the man controlled by the flesh is other than what Scripture says, though Scripture plainly and sharply contrasts him against the person within whom the Spirit of God lives. They confuse the two and claim the one is capable of doing what only the other can because they almost completely ignore and absolutely deny what the Bible says of the natural man.

 

[HeIsHere]

Hah! God has allotted to every man a measure of faith (Rom 12:3). But the earlier portion of v.3 qualifies who "every man" is! This is how the entire verse reads:

Rom 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among YOU, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
KJV

And the "you" in this verse can only be the original audience to whom Paul was writing (Rom 1:7, 13)...and again this is reinforced in 12:1 wherein he addresses his audience as "brethren". In short, the "every man" among "you" is limited to believers. Every child of God has been allotted a measure of faith.

Hah! The faith mentioned here is for believers—not non-believers.

 

[HeIsHere]

Adam never chose anything it was all the will of God.

Either God is sovereign or God is not sovereign?

God is omnipotent and omniscient ... those are the better terms to describe Him.
Being omnipotent does not mean having to control everything all the time but having the ability/power to do so, would you agree?

 

[GWH]

The people He previously knew was Israel.

In the context requires extra verses.

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day.”

9 And David says, “May their table become a snare and a trap, And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.10 May their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs continually.”11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they?

Looks like all Israel to me.

26 and so all Israel will be saved.

Did they stumble so as to fall?

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

May I note that RM 11:8 seems to cite IS 6:10, "Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise... they might be healed." This OT way of stating it appears to blame God for Israel's callousness.

However, Jesus quoted IS 6:9-10 a little differently in MT 13:14-15, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused... Otherwise... they might... turn, and I would heal them." This way of stating it allows for understanding that the people are to blame for having calloused hearts. Paul quoted it the same way in ACTS 28:26-27.

Also, the OT is not always cognizant of God's love for all people and volition as indicated by DT 30:19.

Finally, a reason Israel was legalistic by the time of Christ's advent is because when the Jews returned from the Babylonian Captivity, Ezra instituted such a religion that doubled down on the law of Moses per NEH 8:1-18 and apparently ignored the Messianic prophecies. Thus, the synagogues produced the Pharisees.

 

[HeIsHere]

Salvation comes through faith. How can faith not be part of the gift. That's like Santa giving you a gift but rather than delivering it to you he leaves it in the North Pole. Faith is the delivery mechanism of the grace, just as Santa's sleigh is the delivery mechanism of your gift. No delivery, no gift.

Your analogy is incorrect and see how you twist faith to make it look like a work.

Faith is believing IN/trusting IN the person who states they have the gift and accepting it from the person.

 

[Cameron143]

Your analogy is incorrect and see how you twist faith to make it look like a work.

Faith is believing IN/trusting IN the person who states they have the gift and accepting it from the person.

You're a dishonest person. No matter how many times I explain something to you, you change what I'm saying. You must get royalties from Hasbro because you are the queen of Twister.
Grace and peace.

 

[HeIsHere]

If God chose between the 2 because of something outside of Himself, that would be selection. That isn't what happened. What happened was God chose to create Isaac supernaturally and place him into the human race, and had God not done so, Isaac would never have existed. That's what election is. God isn't selecting between people who already exist, He is bringing a people into the world supernaturally placing them into His kingdom. Without election, there is no creation of those in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now you know what election actually is, so perhaps you won't mischaracterize it in the future.

Wow.
That makes completely sense.

God creates his "elected" supernaturally all the while creating other people who were never going to be elected to fill in the gaps and make life interesting I guess?

I think it is back to the drawing board for you .... not computing with how the word elect is used in scripture I believe @Inquisitor did a good post on it.