Understanding God’s election

[HeIsHere]

Bumped up! Written by @Inquisitor

Are you trying to tell me that Christ's brutal death on the cross, the sacrifice for us.

Was not love amplified in the extreme?

Christ died for all of us and way before anyone will be judged for their acceptance or rejection of His atonement.

You have the judgement before God's love is truly demonstrated to the world.

You have been commanded by Jesus Himself to understand everything in love.

Did God command you to elevate His sovereignty in your relationships?

Did God tell you to respect God's sovereignty?

What did Jesus command you to do @Cameron143 ?

There are only two words in the Christian vocabulary, faith and love.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him.
We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If your not obeying the commandment what have you been up to during your Christian life?

The word 'sovereign' only appears once in the N.T.

The word 'sovereignty' is not in the N.T.

 

[cv5]

Sometimes we can say all the right things but to no avail some simply refuse to listen. It requires a teachable heart to be in debates such as this if you just see what you believe and nothing else then even if the truth is shown to you then you will be blind to it and instead blindly follow your own doctrine.

I myself have been guilty of this at times so I know the signs

What are the hard-core "Reformed" pundits on this thread REALLY engaging in?

Well, their primary business is that of promoting the "Traditional Reformed" view.
Key word: TRADITION

[Mar 7:13 KJV]
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

[Col 2:8 KJV]
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Correcting their errors never comes into play. That much should be obvious.

 

[Cameron143]

Bumped up! Written by @Inquisitor

Are you trying to tell me that Christ's brutal death on the cross, the sacrifice for us.

Was not love amplified in the extreme?

Christ died for all of us and way before anyone will be judged for their acceptance or rejection of His atonement.

You have the judgement before God's love is truly demonstrated to the world.

You have been commanded by Jesus Himself to understand everything in love.

Did God command you to elevate His sovereignty in your relationships?

Did God tell you to respect God's sovereignty?

What did Jesus command you to do @Cameron143 ?

There are only two words in the Christian vocabulary, faith and love.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him.
We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If your not obeying the commandment what have you been up to during your Christian life?

The word 'sovereign' only appears once in the N.T.

The word 'sovereignty' is not in the N.T.

This is another example of your dishonesty. The whole post has many good points, it just never addressed the content of my post. It was posited that God is love and that every action on His part is a demonstration of His love. So I asked how is the casting of someone into the Lake of Fire a manifestation of God's love? In reply @Inquisitor responds that Jesus on the cross is a demonstration of God's love. Well, of course it is. But how does that answer my question?
Now you repost his nonsequitor response as if I disagree with all its content. I do not, but like so many people here, he doesn't actually answer the questions asked.
So perhaps you can tell me: how is casting someone into the Lake of Fire a demonstration of God's love?

 

[cv5]

When I had some of this teaching in my being and people showed me the logical inconsistencies and how scripture is wretched from its context to create this "system" I really began to question it.

It also affects how we see the people around us and creates a very cultic/static/fixed mindset.

I guess it takes a lot to say, something here is not sitting right with me even though I have thought this for years.

I think if one is a member of a Reformed Church or a church with a strong Beza bent then that "group identity" is a strong bond that also keeps one inside that thought system.

I just hope and pray that slowly this system crumbles under its own weight over time. It is not the God of scripture, God Himself calls us to "belief/faith" it is what pleases Him and the more we believe the truth about His nature (God is Love) the more He reveals about Himself to the believer.

Yep.
Beware the leaven of the Calvinites!

 

[cv5]

Bumped up! Written by @Inquisitor

Are you trying to tell me that Christ's brutal death on the cross, the sacrifice for us.

Was not love amplified in the extreme?

Christ died for all of us and way before anyone will be judged for their acceptance or rejection of His atonement.

You have the judgement before God's love is truly demonstrated to the world.

You have been commanded by Jesus Himself to understand everything in love.

Did God command you to elevate His sovereignty in your relationships?

Did God tell you to respect God's sovereignty?

What did Jesus command you to do @Cameron143 ?

There are only two words in the Christian vocabulary, faith and love.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him.
We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If your not obeying the commandment what have you been up to during your Christian life?

The word 'sovereign' only appears once in the N.T.

The word 'sovereignty' is not in the N.T.

The word 'sovereignty' is not in the N.T.

Another Calvinite shibboleth.

 

[Cameron143]

Did God stop being sovereign as a result of this?

 

[Jimbone]

Calvinites for the most part. They repeat his errors endlessly.
Yes, there are more players involved beforehand and further down the line.....but you get the idea.

Well you should go talk to them then, because your words make no sense here where I don't find any claiming to be Calvinist or espousing the Calvinist teachings you're nonstop applying to people that TELL YOU clearly they don't believe these things?
Maybe go somewhere they're actually teaching the things you're fighting for God? Why stay here pretending people believe things they don't. It's very sad to see and impossible to interact with, honestly in good faith.

 

[Rufus]

Yeah, what choices.

Yeah Rufus.

"What choices", you ask? The ones God desires for me to make! Have you never read:

Phil 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you [or if you're a free willer, he forces you like the tyrant he is] to will and to act according to his good purpose.
NIV

Since you asked, I have to presume that you've never experienced God working his holy, perfect will in you, since you're far too busy and preoccupied with glorifying your "free" will that is in bondage to sin.

 

[Rufus]

Well you should go talk to them then, because your words make no sense here where I don't find any claiming to be Calvinist or espousing the Calvinist teachings you're nonstop applying to people that TELL YOU clearly they don't believe these things?
Maybe go somewhere they're actually teaching the things you're fighting for God? Why stay here pretending people believe things they don't. It's very sad to see and impossible to interact with, honestly in good faith.

CV5's straw men are all he has. Without those, he'd have nothing to post. Plus he thinks his straw men prove how smart he is.

 

[cv5]

because your words make no sense

Perfectly understandable in your case.
As per your inputs. Or lack thereof.

 

[Rufus]

I choose to serve my king and to use whatever gifts he has given to do what he has commanded do you remember the parable of the talents? what happened to the one who buried it and did not use it? he was called a lazy and ebil servant is that what you want? it isn;t about our will it is about serving for the kingdom your so stuck on this predestined thing you only see us as free willers but you also ignor how we keep saying it is about doing what was commanded

So, that's what you got out of my post: That I'm lazy and don't want to serve my king? Oy vey!

 

[Rufus]

You are the one that makes faith a work in your analogy, not my fault.

Well...faith is a work! It's God's work, don't you know?

 

[cv5]

When I had some of this teaching in my being and people showed me the logical inconsistencies and how scripture is wretched from its context to create this "system" I really began to question it.

It also affects how we see the people around us and creates a very cultic/static/fixed mindset.

I guess it takes a lot to say, something here is not sitting right with me even though I have thought this for years.

I think if one is a member of a Reformed Church or a church with a strong Beza bent then that "group identity" is a strong bond that also keeps one inside that thought system.

I just hope and pray that slowly this system crumbles under its own weight over time. It is not the God of scripture, God Himself calls us to "belief/faith" it is what pleases Him and the more we believe the truth about His nature (God is Love) the more He reveals about Himself to the believer.

I just hope and pray that slowly this system crumbles under its own weight over time. It is not the God of scripture, God Himself calls us to "belief/faith" it is what pleases Him and the more we believe the truth about His nature (God is Love) the more He reveals about Himself to the believer.

Amen!

 

[Rufus]

When I had some of this teaching in my being and people showed me the logical inconsistencies and how scripture is wretched from its context to create this "system" I really began to question it.

It also affects how we see the people around us and creates a very cultic/static/fixed mindset.

I guess it takes a lot to say, something here is not sitting right with me even though I have thought this for years.

I think if one is a member of a Reformed Church or a church with a strong Beza bent then that "group identity" is a strong bond that also keeps one inside that thought system.

I just hope and pray that slowly this system crumbles under its own weight over time. It is not the God of scripture, God Himself calls us to "belief/faith" it is what pleases Him and the more we believe the truth about His nature (God is Love) the more He reveals about Himself to the believer.

I see "people around" me as being as spiritually weak, helpless and vulnerable as I once was before the Lord rescued me, and in being in desperate need of the new birth so that they can repent of their sins and believe the gospel. What about you? How do you see people?

 

[Jimbone]

CV5's straw men are all he has. Without those, he'd have nothing to post. Plus he thinks his straw men prove how smart he is.

It's truly insane. I don't know if I've ever in my life come across someone fighting so passionately and consistently with people he does not listen to, and tells them what they believe. He does this like he is a Holy Warrior of God protecting His word from evil. But does this by not respecting people enough to even interact with what they actually say and does this by lying about it. I'm pretty sure at this point he's lying to himself mostly and really feels he is doing Gods work, but the sad part is it's a God of his own making. Not only that he has a team if others that all do the exact same thing with him. They are in such a delusion of false teachings and plain heretical views that they can't see the forest with all the trees in the way, and REFUSE to listen to anything at all. This is cult behavior 100%. They're like main stream democrats, they accuse accuse accuse others of everything they do without even being able to see they are the biggest hypocrites of all time. This is them here on CC.

 

[Rufus]

Excellent point, Blain, which is why I post the kerygma from time to time, hoping to keep the focus on what we have in common, as follows:

The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).

A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Only the LIVING can hear the gospel and believe it. The spiritually dead have no spiritual ability. Study Jesus' discourse to Nicodemus some day.

 

[Rufus]

It's truly insane. I don't know if I've ever in my life come across someone fighting so passionately and consistently with people he does not listen to, and tells them what they believe. He does this like he is a Holy Warrior of God protecting His word from evil. But does this by not respecting people enough to even interact with what they actually say and does this by lying about it. I'm pretty sure at this point he's lying to himself mostly and really feels he is doing Gods work, but the sad part is it's a God of his own making. Not only that he has a team if others that all do the exact same thing with him. They are in such a delusion of false teachings and plain heretical views that they can't see the forest with all the trees in the way, and REFUSE to listen to anything at all. This is cult behavior 100%. They're like main stream democrats, they accuse accuse accuse others of everything they do without even being able to see they are the biggest hypocrites of all time. This is them here on CC.

Projection is an inevitable by-product of self-deception. The self-deceived are totally unaware of what they're doing; for they fancy themselves as the champions, defenders and arbiters of truth.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well you should go talk to them then, because your words make no sense here where I don't find any claiming to be Calvinist or espousing the Calvinist teachings you're nonstop applying to people that TELL YOU clearly they don't believe these things?
Maybe go somewhere they're actually teaching the things you're fighting for God? Why stay here pretending people believe things they don't. It's very sad to see and impossible to interact with, honestly in good faith.

How many times has this teaching (see italicized below) been presented on this thread, by those who deny they follow Calvinism/Bezanism/Reformed Theology/Tulip/Augustianism

This is a core belief which Calvinism teaches (not biblical) and if one adheres to this precept then I think the descriptor fits.

Calvinism teaches........ since human beings possess a compulsory will as well as a sin nature that desires only evil, then human beings are totally unable to come to God without a change in their desires.

Constitutionally, one cannot respond positively to any offer of the Gospel unless one’s desire has been divinely changed first. This state of the fallen will, as it were, comes under the rubric of Total Inability in Reformed theology.

Any school or system which has this same starting point of total inability, the term "Calvinism" is used so that one does not have to go and write this out each time.

This doctrine of >>>inability to believe as a starting point changes everything about God and His plan of salvation.

 

[Rufus]

This is another example of your dishonesty. The whole post has many good points, it just never addressed the content of my post. It was posited that God is love and that every action on His part is a demonstration of His love. So I asked how is the casting of someone into the Lake of Fire a manifestation of God's love? In reply @Inquisitor responds that Jesus on the cross is a demonstration of God's love. Well, of course it is. But how does that answer my question?
Now you repost his nonsequitor response as if I disagree with all its content. I do not, but like so many people here, he doesn't actually answer the questions asked.
So perhaps you can tell me: how is casting someone into the Lake of Fire a demonstration of God's love?

I have a biblical answer to your good question -- in fact even more than one answer. But I'll wait until the free will spinmeisters spin their web of deceitfulness first.

 

[HeIsHere]

I see "people around" me as being as spiritually weak, helpless and vulnerable as I once was before the Lord rescued me, and in being in desperate need of the new birth so that they can repent of their sins and believe the gospel. What about you? How do you see people?

Well I certainly do not see God picking apples at the grocery store for salvation and leaving others in their sin having not been given private illumination/gnosis.