Understanding God’s election

[Cranberry]

In order for this gift to occur one must believe in it, God gives to those who trust in Him for it, it is pretty elementary.

God tells us his spirit must act upon us first before we can accept his gift.

 

[HeIsHere]

Belief comes from salvation; it does not lead to salvation - it is of the fruit of the Spirit upon becoming
born again - a result of being saved - it does not occur in the reverse.

And here it is plainly stated, the other position. Man cannot, will not, is unable to believe.

These are diametrically opposing views although sometimes there is some straddling of the lane

 

[HeIsHere]

God tells us his spirit must act upon us first before we can accept his gift.

One has to believe it is a good faith offer, this requires faith/trust in the person making the offer.

 

[rogerg]

And here it is plainly stated, the other position. Man cannot, will not, is unable to believe.

These are diametrically opposing views although sometimes there is some straddling of the lane

Sorry, I am not sure that I completely follow your point.

 

[Genez]

Really? You mean man's "free" will is restricted? Better watch your step, buddy, lest you slip slide into the biblical doctrine Total Depravity.

You are still in your fallen body.....
God saved your soul.
The Holy Spirit is God's means to suppress your depravity.

Do you now have free will?

 

[Genez]

I can easily understand why. You don't have much for anyone to work with.

That does not mean I don't have much.

 

[cv5]

And here it is plainly stated, the other position. Man cannot, will not, is unable to believe.

These are diametrically opposing views although sometimes there is some straddling of the lane

Yup. They say that total inability + total depravity + natural man = lake of fire for all mankind without exception.
No hope, no options, no nothing.

The only exceptions are the "chosenites" (them in particular) who obtained salvation before they were ever created by God Himself and this FAR BEYOND their own choice, free will, or own doings of any kind. I mean they were never around to say yes, no or maybe.

@Magenta tried to sneak in a tepid denial a while back.
I would have none of it though.

She has stated the "everybody gets guaranteed hellfire but the pre-birth chosenites" view unwaveringly HUNDREDS of times over.
Same goes for the rest of the Calvinista crew.

 

[HeIsHere]

Sorry, I am not sure that I completely follow your point.

There are two positions in this thread generally speaking, some minor variations but essentially....

View 1)
Faith is a non-meritorious acceptance of Christ's work. It is the way God enables people to be saved. People are not born morally incapable/unable to respond to the Gospel and the inherent power and truth of the Gospel message. Believe and faith in God's promises/gifts always precede receiving the gift of salvation.


View 2)
Belief comes from salvation; it does not lead to salvation - it is of the fruit of the Spirit upon becoming
born again - a result of being saved - it does not occur in the reverse.

 

[cv5]

One has to believe it is a good faith offer, this requires faith/trust in the person making the offer.

Absolutely correct. And it most certainly is a legitimate good faith offer.

The fact of the existence of covenants DESTROYS the Calvinite position utterly.
Do they care? Not so you would notice.

 

[rogerg]

There are two positions in this thread generally speaking, some minor variations but essentially....

View 1)
Faith is a non-meritorious acceptance of Christ's work. It is the way God enables people to be saved. People are not born morally incapable/unable to respond to the Gospel and the inherent power and truth of the Gospel message. Believe and faith in God's promises/gifts always precede receiving the gift of salvation.


View 2)
Belief comes from salvation; it does not lead to salvation - it is of the fruit of the Spirit upon becoming
born again - a result of being saved - it does not occur in the reverse.

Indeed, your representation of the opinions appears accurate, and from what I can tell, forms the foundation for the majority of posts in this thread.

 

[Kroogz]

Straight-forward Scriptures sometimes seem contradictory, which is why we should attempt to harmonize all Scripture, such as what follows, beginning with JN 10:28:

The doctrine of perseverance or LGW serves as a bridge from the kerygma (creed) to the didache (lifelong spiritual growth) or from spiritual birth to maturity, so it is logical to harmonize various biblical statements on this issue before proceeding to other didachaic topics. The passages that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:

1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”.

2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.

3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.

4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.

5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.

6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).

7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Well, This is simple. NEVER perish. All believers are forever preserved. BUT.....not all believers will have all their rewards, reign,rank, crowns.....It's sad, those are all rewards that we have the privilege to cast before His feet to glorify Him.

Loss of salvation glorifies the creature and what they are doing or not doing. Eternal security Glorifies what He has done for the believer.

 

[Rufus]

And here it is plainly stated, the other position. Man cannot, will not, is unable to believe.

These are diametrically opposing views although sometimes there is some straddling of the lane

No, they are not. All three of them are true. Men will not believe because they are powerless, i.e. cannot. In fact, "cannot" means "to be unable to do otherwise".

 

[HeIsHere]

Yup. They say that total inability + total depravity + natural man = lake of fire for all mankind without exception.
No hope, no options, no nothing.

The only exceptions are the "chosenites" (them in particular) who obtained salvation before they were ever created by God Himself and this FAR BEYOND their own choice, free will, or own doings of any kind. I mean they were never around to say yes, no or maybe.

@Magenta tried to sneak in a tepid denial a while back.
I would have none of it though.

She has stated the "everybody gets guaranteed hellfire but the pre-birth chosenites" view unwaveringly HUNDREDS of times over.
Same goes for the rest of the Calvinista crew.

I am 100% convinced their order of salvation is completely wrong, a heart is changed after belief not before.

Yes even in-person they tend to back peddle as well, funny they know their doctrine is a bitter false pill but they still want you to swallow it for some reason.

 

[Inquisitor]

Really? You mean man's "free" will is restricted? Better watch your step, buddy, lest you slip slide into the biblical doctrine Total Depravity.

Simply because no one is perfect we cannot have a perfect free will, it will be a will that has an inherent bias.

Then again, a perfect gospel may penetrate our distorted free will, enabling us to make a perfect
free will decision.

 

[Rufus]

I am 100% convinced their order of salvation is completely wrong, a heart is changed after belief not before.

Yes even in-person they tend to back peddle as well, funny they know their doctrine is a bitter false pill but they still want you to swallow it for some reason.

Who needs a new heart after the old, vile, corrupt, deceitful, wicked, evil heart conjured up HEART-FELT belief? Since the new heart gets you into the pearly gates, why is the new one necessary?

 

[Rufus]

Yup. They say that total inability + total depravity + natural man = lake of fire for all mankind without exception.
No hope, no options, no nothing.

The only exceptions are the "chosenites" (them in particular) who obtained salvation before they were ever created by God Himself and this FAR BEYOND their own choice, free will, or own doings of any kind. I mean they were never around to say yes, no or maybe.

@Magenta tried to sneak in a tepid denial a while back.
I would have none of it though.

She has stated the "everybody gets guaranteed hellfire but the pre-birth chosenites" view unwaveringly HUNDREDS of times over.
Same goes for the rest of the Calvinista crew.

Yeah...just like the fallen angels. You act as though filthy, vile sinners deserve hope, options, salvation, etc.

And no one obtains salvation before they were ever created. While the elect's salvation was decreed in eternity, they do not attain to it until the Holy Spirit applies it to their hearts and minds in this age at which time they become conscious of God, his Christ and his great salvation.

 

[Genez]

God tells us his spirit must act upon us first before we can accept his gift.

That act you speak of was God giving us grace to keep out flesh out of the picture, while our soul was made free to deal with the Gospel message we were given.

If grace were not present our soul would have remained oppressed, and unable to grasp the words given to us to think with.

No soul could be made able to believe without the Spirit first silencing our flesh.

In Christ .........

 

[Rufus]

That act you speak of was God giving us grace to keep out flesh out of the picture, while our soul was made free to deal with the Gospel message we were given.

If grace were not present our soul would have remained oppressed, and unable to grasp the words given to us to think with.

Since when did you come to believe in Irresistible Grace?

 

[Inquisitor]

Who needs a new heart after the old, vile, corrupt, deceitful, wicked, evil heart conjured up HEART-FELT belief? Since the new heart gets you into the pearly gates, why is the new one necessary?

Because the new heart was a predestined event.

That is, being "conformed to the image of the Son" (Romans 8:29).

No one get's into heaven except through Jesus Christ.

 

[cv5]

I am 100% convinced their order of salvation is completely wrong, a heart is changed after belief not before.

Yes even in-person they tend to back peddle as well, funny they know their doctrine is a bitter false pill but they still want you to swallow it for ***some reason***.

You nailed it. I have reached the same conclusions.
But, the "some reason" is not a mystery to me that's for sure.