Your answer begs the question. Why did God predestine people to get a new heart? Are you now saying that man's "free will" is suddenly insufficient to the goal of being "conformed to the image of the Son"? The human will, apart from a heart transplant, is good enough to get us saved but not good enough to get any of us "conformed to the image of the Son"?
Understanding God’s election
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1. We agree that salvation is not universal, but I believe 1TM 2:3-4, DT 30:19, etal indicate that God wants it to be or offers grace to all people, whereas you provide no Scripture to support belief that God hates the non-elect part of humanity and condemns them to hell with no chance to be saved.
rogerg - Were it true that God wants it offered to everyone, then one's acceptance of the offer would make salvation of their work and they their own savior, not Christ. For Christ to be Savior, He must have accomplished all on the behalf of those to be saved; that is, all of the requirements necessary for salvation - with there being nothing yet to be finished - completed by us - including our choice, otherwise, He wouldn't be the Savior, we would be, but the scripture is extremely clear that He alone is Savior.
GWH - You do not get to define faith as a meritorious work. Nor should you impugn God's love by saying He hates those for whom He accomplishes condemnation, "God hates everyone not justified by Christ".
2. We agree that it is God's prerogative to dispense grace/salvation to whomever He so chooses to, but we disagree about "for whatever reason or no reason", as though His choice/election can be motivated by hatred or else a blind throw of the darts. I believe the reason must be love, because Jesus said we should love our enemies and be perfect like God (MT 5:44&48). You ascribe irrationality and hatred to God for no good/biblical reason.
rogerg - God hates everyone not justified by Christ, so we all start equally from that position. Why? Because we, from the first moments of life, are sinners. Therefore, God owes us nothing. That He chooses to forgive and save anyone demonstrates His exceedingly great mercy and grace. Were it not solely for His mercy and grace, no one could be saved.
GWH - On the contrary, God choosing to save only a few demonstrates that His hatred is exceedingly greater than His love/mercy/grace.
3. We agree that no one deserves or can earn grace/salvation by works or obeying moral law, but we disagree about whether faith is a meritorious work rather than merely one's will accepting God's work. My view is supported by EPH 2:8-10 and every other NT reference to faith/belief, because it harmonizes with Scripture teaching that God is all-loving, whereas your view interprets a few of those references as indicating God determines whether or not everyone repents or not, which makes God blamable for lack of repentance/faith.
rogerg - Who do you think the "we" of Eph 2:8 -10 represents? The answer can be seen in Eph 2:1. The "we" represents those whom God already had made spiritually alive: [Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Notice in Eph 2:1, the progression of events as stated therein: that they were dead; and then they were quickened (made alive).
Observe also that in being made alive, they contributed nothing to it whatsoever- it was all by God - He alone took them from death and gave them life with nothing else intervening between the two states- there was no acceptance of it on their part in order to have it: a spiritually dead person cannot assist with giving themselves life. Can you see that?
GWH - God initiated the progression by offering grace, but EPH 2:8 and many other Scriptures say the completion of being made alive is conditional upon the soul accepting the offer by faith, and it is obvious (at Christmas time especially to all who have eyes to see) that accepting a gift does not mean the recipient earned it--and that those who reject the gift of salvation reap the just result of condemnation.
"Were it true that God wants it offered to everyone, then one's acceptance of the offer would make salvation of their work and they
their own savior, not Christ."
And that, dear friends, is Calvinite nuttery on display.
Oh....and its utterly unbiblical too.
Since when is a bride accepting the offer of marriage provided by the groom a "work"?
Does ANY SANE PERSON in the universe think that accepting an offer of marriage is a "work"?
No. Only the truly insane believe this.
Which of course is another reason why I am not a Calvinite.
You see, choosing is not a "work". Choosing is an aspect of simply BEING ALIVE. As God defines life.
their own savior, not Christ."
And that, dear friends, is Calvinite nuttery on display.
Oh....and its utterly unbiblical too.
Since when is a bride accepting the offer of marriage provided by the groom a "work"?
Does ANY SANE PERSON in the universe think that accepting an offer of marriage is a "work"?
No. Only the truly insane believe this.
Which of course is another reason why I am not a Calvinite.
You see, choosing is not a "work". Choosing is an aspect of simply BEING ALIVE. As God defines life.
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If God were going to make saints unable to sin at the end, it would have been better for everyone and saved a lot of time and misery for Him to do that with A&E at the beginning.
No, the NT teaches that saints learn on earth how to be conformed to Christ, which means they will have the mind of Christ while retaining the love of Christ. May I suggest you read the rest of EPH (beyond 1:14 :^), especially 3:7-4:15?
No, the NT teaches that saints learn on earth how to be conformed to Christ, which means they will have the mind of Christ while retaining the love of Christ. May I suggest you read the rest of EPH (beyond 1:14 :^), especially 3:7-4:15?
Two things about your first paragraph alone: First, you totally misinterpret 1Tim 2:3-4, as I have recently demonstrated in the past. You lift the verse out of its context. You have no clue as to who "all men" are in the passage. Secondly, God "hated" Esau because he was not a "child of promise" -- and he wasn't by divine decree in eternity.
Definitely Rufus, a person cannot be conformed to Christ's image, absolutely impossible.
The Holy Spirit will effect that production of the fruit within us, in conformity to that image.
We are only ever saved by grace through faith to a spiritual gospel.
When the gospel is preached the Holy Spirit works the miracles, the conviction, unblocks the ears.
The Holy Spirit leads at all times.
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
Keep it super simple and let the Holy Spirit take control.
1 Corinthians 2:4-5
And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration
of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of mankind, but on the power of God.
Tell me Rufus, have you got it yet?
The Holy Spirit will effect that production of the fruit within us, in conformity to that image.
We are only ever saved by grace through faith to a spiritual gospel.
When the gospel is preached the Holy Spirit works the miracles, the conviction, unblocks the ears.
The Holy Spirit leads at all times.
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
Keep it super simple and let the Holy Spirit take control.
1 Corinthians 2:4-5
And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration
of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of mankind, but on the power of God.
Tell me Rufus, have you got it yet?
Again, you say that because you assume that you are in the elect batch, but a God who would hate the non-elect people would easily be tricky enough to deceive you with bogus Scripture saying that you are saved. However, Jesus (MT 5:40& u44) and Paul (1TM 2:3-4) acted/taught as though God is all-loving, so don't claim to be like them! Your apathy regarding justness and apparent lack of love is more akin to the angel of light/darkness. The only way out of your confusion if you don't like Paul's reasoning is if you can find him teaching universal salvation.
[QUOTE="GWH, post: 5422219, member: 334064"]If God were going to make saints unable to sin at the end, it would have been better for everyone and saved a lot of time and misery for Him to do that with A&E at the beginning.
No, the NT teaches that saints learn on earth how to be conformed to Christ, which means they will have the mind of Christ while retaining the love of Christ. May I suggest you read the rest of EPH (beyond 1:14 :^), especially 3:7-4:15? [/QUOTE]
Oh, really? So, your thoughts and ways are higher and better than God's ways? You see...I told you would be quite uncomfortable in a holy environment such as heaven or even in the restored earth. What you don't understand is that the saints in their glorified states will finally be free FROM the presence of all sin -- both from within and from without. Salvation FREES us from the penalty of sin, the power of sin and eventually the presence of sin.
In your world....I know that must suck raw eggs in your world because you would be TOO conformed to the Image of Christ since like Him you would not be able to sin.
No, the NT teaches that saints learn on earth how to be conformed to Christ, which means they will have the mind of Christ while retaining the love of Christ. May I suggest you read the rest of EPH (beyond 1:14 :^), especially 3:7-4:15? [/QUOTE]
Oh, really? So, your thoughts and ways are higher and better than God's ways? You see...I told you would be quite uncomfortable in a holy environment such as heaven or even in the restored earth. What you don't understand is that the saints in their glorified states will finally be free FROM the presence of all sin -- both from within and from without. Salvation FREES us from the penalty of sin, the power of sin and eventually the presence of sin.
In your world....I know that must suck raw eggs in your world because you would be TOO conformed to the Image of Christ since like Him you would not be able to sin.
No offer is made by God for salvation under the New Covenant. God has already decided and has executed everything pertaining to salvation. Man is only its recipient/beneficiary. Those who think there is an action required of them, even to the "accepting an offer of marriage", demonstrate they are/remain under the law of works, not grace.
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That is exactly why Paul went "every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks" (ACTS 18:4)! "He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus." (ACTS 28:23b) "Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. (ACTS 28:24) They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement: The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people's heart has become calloused." (ACTS 28:25-27a)
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“Belief comes from salvation; it does not lead to salvation “
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
so basically believe the opposite of the word and then claim there could be no other answer lol ok gotcha
“ Our acceptance of it has no bearing upon receiving it.”
Okay so it’s forced upon some and never offered to others…..and no one has any option …. wow ok
that’s quite a doctrine I hope my number comes up on the great lottery of the ages
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
so basically believe the opposite of the word and then claim there could be no other answer lol ok gotcha
“ Our acceptance of it has no bearing upon receiving it.”
Okay so it’s forced upon some and never offered to others…..and no one has any option …. wow ok
that’s quite a doctrine I hope my number comes up on the great lottery of the ages
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Oh...I have it perfectly; thank you for asking. But you are so utterly self-deceived you are totally unaware that your theology contradicts itself! Your theology induces you to talk out of both sides of your mouth! Out of one side of your mouth, the effectual work of the Holy Spirit is UNNECESSARY since sinners, by the power of their own "free" will can choose to save themselves from the penalty of sin since their own faith justifies them, for all they have to do is to respond to the outward call of the gospel; but now you're also saying out of the other side of your mouth that the Holy Spirit and the new heart are absolutely necessary for the purpose of the 2nd aspect to salvation, namely, sanctification which is the process by which one becomes conformed to the image of Christ over time. Yet, the bible itself doesn't dichotomize the three aspects (the other being Glorification). Salvation is an organic whole. God who "began" it (starting with Justification in this age) ...will take it to its completion (Glorification in the next age).
Secondly, because of your willful ignorance of the scriptures, you overlook the fact that God saves us through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth -- in this order I might add (2Thes 2:13)! This is so because the sanctification process starts at the point of Regeneration (not to be confused with the New Birth itself!); for Regeneration takes the newly made alive elect to the new birth by the power of the Holy Spirit of which you now suddenly boast. And the New Birth in turn leads to a confession of faith and repentance in response to the Gospel, at which point the recipient of God's saving grace becomes totally aware of his new standing and status before God.
Do you understand, yet?
Secondly, because of your willful ignorance of the scriptures, you overlook the fact that God saves us through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth -- in this order I might add (2Thes 2:13)! This is so because the sanctification process starts at the point of Regeneration (not to be confused with the New Birth itself!); for Regeneration takes the newly made alive elect to the new birth by the power of the Holy Spirit of which you now suddenly boast. And the New Birth in turn leads to a confession of faith and repentance in response to the Gospel, at which point the recipient of God's saving grace becomes totally aware of his new standing and status before God.
Do you understand, yet?
Why did God choose to hate Esau yet love Jacob since both were in the womb, neither having done good nor evil? It was because Jacob was justified by Christ and Esau wasn't.
[Rom 9:13-15 KJV]
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Yes, those not saved are greater in number than those saved. Why? Because the unsaved (as we all once were), were born in sin, but are not of those elected by God to be covered by Christ's offering for forgiveness of sin, and having sin, God's divine prerogative to hate them and not save them, the deserved condition we all would all find ourselves in were it not for His exceeding mercy and grace through Christ.
You obviously didn't read verse 2:1, did you, or, you didn't understand it: God did/does it all.
You are trying to change the meaning of 2:8 to accommodate your beliefs. It says no such thing as what you've stated
For it to mean what you said, it would be to force the verse to contradict itself - not possible.
Further, it places you in violation of Rev 22:18-19.
Anything that someone believes they must do to become saved no matter how slight it may seem to them,
nevertheless, means they are under the law of works, not grace.
[Rom 9:13-15 KJV]
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Yes, those not saved are greater in number than those saved. Why? Because the unsaved (as we all once were), were born in sin, but are not of those elected by God to be covered by Christ's offering for forgiveness of sin, and having sin, God's divine prerogative to hate them and not save them, the deserved condition we all would all find ourselves in were it not for His exceeding mercy and grace through Christ.
You obviously didn't read verse 2:1, did you, or, you didn't understand it: God did/does it all.
You are trying to change the meaning of 2:8 to accommodate your beliefs. It says no such thing as what you've stated
For it to mean what you said, it would be to force the verse to contradict itself - not possible.
Further, it places you in violation of Rev 22:18-19.
Anything that someone believes they must do to become saved no matter how slight it may seem to them,
nevertheless, means they are under the law of works, not grace.
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
2 Timothy 2:25-26 KJV
“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4 KJV
there’s always a way out
John 8:31-32 KJV
“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
2 Timothy 2:25-26 KJV
“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4 KJV
there’s always a way out