Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Eh? Really? No, I am saying that by insisting that as a natural man they have a will that is free, which is nowhere taught in the Bible by the way, because what the Bible actually teaches is the natural man is a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth, being a slave to sin taken captive to the will of the devil, etc. By denying these and other verses regarding man's natural estate and ability they claim they were able to do something as a natural man because of their free will when it is Jesus Who sets us free, expressly articulated in the Bible, salvation is by the will and desire of God, not the desire or effort of man. Yeah, they give themselves the credit and further make lots of noise about how man is not as bad as the Bible makes him out to be. Their pride stamp is all over it.
Yes agree, of course their are variations, I try to keep a narrow focus on the order of salvation/ordo salutis of Calvinism and the reasons they have it wrong according to scripture.
I see the label as useful to differentiate between those who agree with scripture that personal belief precedes salvation and all the other varieties of thought that denies the ability of a person to respond positively to the Gospel and regeneration of some kind precedes belief.
I see the label as useful to differentiate between those who agree with scripture that personal belief precedes salvation and all the other varieties of thought that denies the ability of a person to respond positively to the Gospel and regeneration of some kind precedes belief.
And accepting a gift is not a work, nor is it meritorious since this is the exact same "order" for all people throughout all time.
One can only boast of something which is "extra" not of what is the same door for all.
All those who are born again believed in the offer of Christ Jesus and His work on our behalf.
Egalitarian not elitism.
One can only boast of something which is "extra" not of what is the same door for all.
All those who are born again believed in the offer of Christ Jesus and His work on our behalf.
Egalitarian not elitism.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
It is interesting that you should say this because I am forced to determine one of the four following things in relation to why Calvinists repeatedly reject simple and plain truths.
1. They are genuinely ignorant. If so, then there is hope that they might eventually be persuaded to embrace the truth.
2. They are proud, and, therefore, they refuse to humbly admit that they are in error.
3. They are willfully ignorant, as you just suggested. If so, then why? What benefit do they gain from willfully embracing a lie? This question leads me to ponder the next possibility.
4. They are willfully and knowingly wicked, and they therefore are wickedly promoting a false "god" in order to potentially deceive the saints of God.
Personally, I hope that the first option is the correct one, but I fear that options 2, 3, and 4 pertain to many in this world who identify as Calvinists. For me, it is both horrifying and sad, and I exact no pleasure whatsoever from even suggesting these things. God is not willing that any should perish, and I am not willing that any should perish either, but everybody has their own freewill choices to make. Choose wisely is all that I can say.
1. They are genuinely ignorant. If so, then there is hope that they might eventually be persuaded to embrace the truth.
2. They are proud, and, therefore, they refuse to humbly admit that they are in error.
3. They are willfully ignorant, as you just suggested. If so, then why? What benefit do they gain from willfully embracing a lie? This question leads me to ponder the next possibility.
4. They are willfully and knowingly wicked, and they therefore are wickedly promoting a false "god" in order to potentially deceive the saints of God.
Personally, I hope that the first option is the correct one, but I fear that options 2, 3, and 4 pertain to many in this world who identify as Calvinists. For me, it is both horrifying and sad, and I exact no pleasure whatsoever from even suggesting these things. God is not willing that any should perish, and I am not willing that any should perish either, but everybody has their own freewill choices to make. Choose wisely is all that I can say.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Doesn't work that way for the Calvinites.
They say that God is hoaxing Cain in Genesis 4:7
They say that it was God Himself that CREATED Cain evil,
and then as a cruel joke gave him advice/commandment that he COULD NOT POSSIBLY follow.
Which led to his devastating judgement, yet another joke on him.
[Gen 4:7 KJV]
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
They say that God is hoaxing Cain in Genesis 4:7
They say that it was God Himself that CREATED Cain evil,
and then as a cruel joke gave him advice/commandment that he COULD NOT POSSIBLY follow.
Which led to his devastating judgement, yet another joke on him.
[Gen 4:7 KJV]
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
It makes a difference because He foreknew them before creation. They were already chosen in Christ before they came into being.
It's not my position that anyone was predestined to destruction. Men are suited to destruction through their own actions. Given the corrupt nature due to sin, God has no need to predestine man to destruction. It is his default condition.
It's not my position that anyone was predestined to destruction. Men are suited to destruction through their own actions. Given the corrupt nature due to sin, God has no need to predestine man to destruction. It is his default condition.
Right the gospel was given to everyone
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Do you see here how it’s not saying some of you are already saved and some are already damned ?
the ines who reach out and receive the gospel shall be saved, it isn’t that they already were saved and the others weren’t
salvation is a result of the gospel being preached to people
1 preach the gospel to all creatures
2 whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved
Its a result not a pre drawn conclusion
3 whoever does not believe the gospel shall be damned
again it’s a result after the gospel is heard based upon the persons response to hearing the gospel
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Do you see here how it’s not saying some of you are already saved and some are already damned ?
the ines who reach out and receive the gospel shall be saved, it isn’t that they already were saved and the others weren’t
salvation is a result of the gospel being preached to people
1 preach the gospel to all creatures
2 whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved
Its a result not a pre drawn conclusion
3 whoever does not believe the gospel shall be damned
again it’s a result after the gospel is heard based upon the persons response to hearing the gospel
We constantly get accused of misrepresenting their beliefs. I for one was stuck in reformed theology for 10 years. I know EXACTLY what they believe. @ForestGreenCook who has participated in this thread, is the only honest one and has come to the logical conclusion of Calvinism and its doctrines. The others participating are still trying to "meet in the middle." One cannot meet in the middle in Calvinism.
Example. One cannot believe in the gospel. Yet, They(most) say they still believe in the great commission. They don't know if they might bump into a "selected special one."
Anyone with any sense at all knows it's POINTLESS. They cannot choose. No need to preach the Gospel........That IS the logical conclusion.
And @ForestGreenCook is the only reformed person that I have seen who is honest about it.
Jan 31, 2024
#171
Kroogz said:
What must I do to be saved?
@ForestGreenCook
Well-known member
Jul 8, 20188,4411,213113
If you are referring to eternally, nothing.
~~~~~~~~
Example. One cannot believe in the gospel. Yet, They(most) say they still believe in the great commission. They don't know if they might bump into a "selected special one."
Anyone with any sense at all knows it's POINTLESS. They cannot choose. No need to preach the Gospel........That IS the logical conclusion.
And @ForestGreenCook is the only reformed person that I have seen who is honest about it.
Jan 31, 2024
#171
Kroogz said:
What must I do to be saved?
@ForestGreenCook
Well-known member
Jul 8, 20188,4411,213113
If you are referring to eternally, nothing.
~~~~~~~~
-
2
- Show all
No accepting a gift isnt a work it’s a reaction when the gift is offered but what if we don’t want it ? What if we don’t like the look and see that it’s calling us to give up the son we live and live in ? What if we’d rather keep living life our own way ?
this parable shows a lot of insight of how the chosen ones came up short and then he sent witnesses to all people
“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. ( he sent the prophets to israel but they rejected them )
Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. ( he sent the letter messianic prophets to call them home )
But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.( they persecuted his prophets because they were calling them to repentance )
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. ( so he destroyed Jerusalem and left them desolate it for a believing remnant who preached the gospel to all people after Israel’s rejection )
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. ( Israel was the called and chosen )
( the gospel is sent to all people of the world )
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. ( everyone’s invited but people turn down the invite because of the directions given to arrive there )
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.”
Matthew 22:2-10 KJV
alot Of people are mixing up Israel’s old covenant and the new one that began with them and then was given to all people
He did blind israel to his word because they rejected it willfully for so long in order that he would call a people for himself from the nations
this parable shows a lot of insight of how the chosen ones came up short and then he sent witnesses to all people
“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. ( he sent the prophets to israel but they rejected them )
Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. ( he sent the letter messianic prophets to call them home )
But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.( they persecuted his prophets because they were calling them to repentance )
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. ( so he destroyed Jerusalem and left them desolate it for a believing remnant who preached the gospel to all people after Israel’s rejection )
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. ( Israel was the called and chosen )
( the gospel is sent to all people of the world )
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. ( everyone’s invited but people turn down the invite because of the directions given to arrive there )
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.”
Matthew 22:2-10 KJV
alot Of people are mixing up Israel’s old covenant and the new one that began with them and then was given to all people
He did blind israel to his word because they rejected it willfully for so long in order that he would call a people for himself from the nations
-
1
- Show all
And yet the passage you quote has men choosing life or death based on their actions. How is that faith?
The Bible gives revelation progressively. This doesn't mean what is being revealed isn't already true. Salvation hasn't changed. It was always by grace through faith. It has always involved the Spirit and a new heart.
The Bible gives revelation progressively. This doesn't mean what is being revealed isn't already true. Salvation hasn't changed. It was always by grace through faith. It has always involved the Spirit and a new heart.
-
2
- Show all
Yes I have wondered this myself, I do think it is a mixed bag.
Just absolute speculation on my part, but I think maybe some at the top who publish the books etc., and are high profile in this "school of thought" may fall into #4. When you investigate and learn how the seminaries have been infiltrated it is quite alarming
I hate seeing this resurgence, but I think this has been coordinated.
I also think there is an emotional/fleshy appeal of Calvinism along with some narcissistic elements.
As well, yes there is plain indoctrination, people do not realize how easy it is to be indoctrinated even when the system seems logical and answers all the questions, does not mean it is right or true.
I find it ironic that that adherents who claim it is NOT possible to believe the offer of Christ Jesus without special revelation/regeneration, they themselves are under some kind of mass indoctrination which truth cannot penetrate.
Really ironic!
-
1
- Show all
Which is exactly why Jesus said some people will ultimately be condemned.
Jhn 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Those who will ultimately be condemned will be those who loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. The same hate the light, Jesus, the light of the world, and they will not come to him that their evil deeds might be reproved. Nothing here about God allegedly "predestinating" them to condemnation. Their condemnation will be the direct result of their own freewill choices in this life.
Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
In context, here is what their CHOICE of either life or death pertained to.
Deu 30:11
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Here is Paul's interpretation of these verses.
Rom 10:6
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
Rom 10:7
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The righteousness which is of faith that Paul preached is the same exact righteousness which is of faith the Moses preached to the Israelites back in Deuteronomy chapter 30. They, like we, had the option of CHOOSING either life or death by faith in Christ.
Heb 4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Again, Moses preached the same exact gospel to the Israelites that non-Calvinists are preaching today. The reason why it did not profit many in the days of Moses is because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard it, and not because Calvin's "god" predestinated them to damnation.
Jhn 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Those who will ultimately be condemned will be those who loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. The same hate the light, Jesus, the light of the world, and they will not come to him that their evil deeds might be reproved. Nothing here about God allegedly "predestinating" them to condemnation. Their condemnation will be the direct result of their own freewill choices in this life.
Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
In context, here is what their CHOICE of either life or death pertained to.
Deu 30:11
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Here is Paul's interpretation of these verses.
Rom 10:6
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
Rom 10:7
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The righteousness which is of faith that Paul preached is the same exact righteousness which is of faith the Moses preached to the Israelites back in Deuteronomy chapter 30. They, like we, had the option of CHOOSING either life or death by faith in Christ.
Heb 4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Again, Moses preached the same exact gospel to the Israelites that non-Calvinists are preaching today. The reason why it did not profit many in the days of Moses is because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard it, and not because Calvin's "god" predestinated them to damnation.
-
2
-
1
- Show all