Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

That is the job of the Holy Spirit, to convict. Every person on earth has felt that in their lives, the Bible says that the Holy Spirit draws men. Your question doesn't make sense according to what the Word says. The Spirit draws, convicts and points us to Christ.

Can you share the verse your claim is made from?

 

[rogerg]

Who is the YOU being talked about here? Then we can discuss further.


24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

It is those whom God had chosen to salvation. They are the constituents of the New Covenant.
The nation of Israel cannot be in view, because as a nation, they are no longer the people of God - if that's what you're thinking. The elect/saved of all nations, Jew and Gentile alike, have become the Israel of God; it is they alone who comprise it, and they alone who receive the new heart.

[Hos 1:9-10 KJV]
9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV] 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[Rom 9:24, 26 KJV]
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Here's what Cameron said.

... why doesn't everyone who physically hears the word of God get saved?

I gave him verses that said why everyone who hears isn't saved. Belief. Those who believe WILL be saved. Yes, I made the case according to what the Word says.

Did you see the verses I included that define who those are that will believe? And one's belief does not save anyone. It is an
attribute that arises from having been saved - only Christ as the Savior, saves.

 

[rogerg]

Have you perhaps wondered why you are no longer getting any straight answers?

Think in terms of what happened between the last verse of Matt 12 leading to the first verse of Matt 13.

Huh? How do those verses relate to the marriage of the Lamb?

 

[Magenta]

Faith comes through hearing the word of God.

His sheep hear... who else? .

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

While I agree that one is to persuade, then the one persuading is exercising the power, wouldn't they be giving the increase and not just planting and watering?

No, they would not be giving the increase, but merely planting and watering by seeking to persuade their hearers to believe the gospel. The increase can come by God alone or via the convicting and regenerating power of the Holy Ghost.

1Co 3:7
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

That said, people can willfully resist the convicting and regenerating power of the Holy Ghost; thereby rejecting the gospel while remaining stiff-necked and uncircumcised in both heart and ears.

Act 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

In just that one comment of Stephen alone, we have at least 1500 years of biblical history, and over the course of those 1500 years, people regularly resisted the Holy Ghost. Why won't you admit this? Why do people here still insist that God's grace is "irresistible" when it clearly isn't?

Along these same lines, and as has already been pointed out to you, Jesus said:

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

How often would I (Jesus' will) have gathered thy children together, and ye would not (the will of the people)!

Again, there are at least 1500 years of biblical history in that one statement of Jesus. I say at least 1500 years because people have been willfully rejecting him and his will for almost 2000 additional years since he uttered those words. There is CLEARLY a clash between his will and the free will choices of others, so why won't you admit the same? You are preaching "another gospel," and, according to scripture, you are ACCURSED for doing so. Why doesn't that SCARE you? Have you no fear of God? Have you no concern for your soul? For crying out loud, man, REPENT!

Read these verses, and then tell me what they all have in common.

Deu 1:26
Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

Deu 1:43
So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill.

Deu 8:20
As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Isa 30:15
For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Jer 29:19
Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

What is it about YE WOULD NOT that you don't understand?

Look, if you don't care about your own soul, then I cannot waste time trying to persuade you to embrace the true gospel. Some of you people SCARE me, in the sense that I am HORRIFIED by how stubborn you are, and I am not joking. You are misrepresenting God. What will you do on the day of Christ's judgment when you are called to give an account for the same? You had better come to your senses before that dreadful day.

 

[Cranberry]

Salvific faith is never stated as part of the gift in scripture. The gift is salvation.

That is your error. Scripture has been posted to prove this.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Can you share the verse your claim is made from?

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me


...for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

It is those whom God had chosen to salvation. They are the constituents of the New Covenant.
The nation of Israel cannot be in view, because as a nation, they are no longer the people of God - if that's what you're thinking. The elect/saved of all nations, Jew and Gentile alike, have become the Israel of God; it is they alone who comprise it, and they alone who receive the new heart.

No, the church doesn't replace the Jewish people. Romans 11. They are still the chosen people. And yet even the chosen people are not chosen unto salvation. If they aren't the Calvinists aren't.

Did you see the verses I included that define who those are that will believe? And one's belief does not save anyone. It is an
attribute that arises from having been saved - only Christ as the Savior, saves.

The Bible says whoever believes will be saved. Period.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

His sheep hear... who else? .

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

Whoever hears and believes. Me and ewe and whoever else. lol

 

[Cameron143]

No, they would not be giving the increase, but merely planting and watering by seeking to persuade their hearers to believe the gospel. The increase can come by God alone or via the convicting and regenerating power of the Holy Ghost.

1Co 3:7
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

That said, people can willfully resist the convicting and regenerating power of the Holy Ghost; thereby rejecting the gospel while remaining stiff-necked and uncircumcised in both heart and ears.

Act 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

In just that one comment of Stephen alone, we have at least 1500 years of biblical history, and over the course of those 1500 years, people regularly resisted the Holy Ghost. Why won't you admit this? Why do people here still insist that God's grace is "irresistible" when it clearly isn't?

Along these same lines, and as has already been pointed out to you, Jesus said:

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

How often would I (Jesus' will) have gathered thy children together, and ye would not (the will of the people)!

Again, there are at least 1500 years of biblical history in that one statement of Jesus. I say at least 1500 years because people have been willfully rejecting him and his will for almost 2000 additional years since he uttered those words. There is CLEARLY a clash between his will and the free will choices of others, so why won't you admit the same? You are preaching "another gospel," and, according to scripture, you are ACCURSED for doing so. Why doesn't that SCARE you? Have you no fear of God? Have you no concern for your soul? For crying out loud, man, REPENT!

Read these verses, and then tell me what they all have in common.

Deu 1:26
Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

Deu 1:43
So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill.

Deu 8:20
As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Isa 30:15
For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Jer 29:19
Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

What is it about YE WOULD NOT that you don't understand?

Look, if you don't care about your own soul, then I cannot waste time trying to persuade you to embrace the true gospel. Some of you people SCARE me, in the sense that I am HORRIFIED by how stubborn you are, and I am not joking. You are misrepresenting God. What will you do on the day of Christ's judgment when you are called to give an account for the same? You had better come to your senses before that dreadful day.

The true gospel is the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. I believe in this. And the understanding of how this transpires is not necessary for salvation, your appeal to emotionalism Notwithstanding.

I also agree that people can reject the gospel. This is the default position of men who refuse the gospel and are perishing; it is foolishness to them. This isn't my question.

Since the gospel is necessary for salvation and since the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, what is the power? Is the power in the words of scripture? Is the power in the persuasion of the one who delivers the gospel? Is the power the Holy Spirit?

You are free not to answer, but you need not worry about my salvation. If you feel I'm in peril, then pray for me. I'm actually interested in what you would pray and ask God to do on my behalf. Would you ask God to intervene in some way? If so, why? Do I not already possess all I need to be saved?

 

[Magenta]

Whoever hears and believes. Me and ewe and whoever else. lol

But if only His sheep hear... is one His sheep before hearing or after? It would not make
sense to say someone who is not His sheep hears and then becomes a sheep... does it?
Because being a sheep comes before hearing...

 

[Cameron143]

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me


...for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

Thanks. There is alot to unravel here. I'll have to respond later.

 

[rogerg]

No, the church doesn't replace the Jewish people. Romans 11. They are still the chosen people. And yet even the chosen people are not chosen unto salvation. If they aren't the Calvinists aren't.

Either you didn't read or didn't understand the verses I posted. The Jews, just because they are of the earthly nation of Israel, no longer have special standing with God, as the verses I included demonstrate. On the other hand, elect Jews and Gentiles, have become the
Israel of God - spiritual Israel, but it is by Christ saving them and making them Christians. It is often difficult in scripture to differentiate which Israel is in view: whether earthly or the spiritual, but to do so is critical in order to gain correct understanding. As a rule of thumb, the Israel where God's eternal blessing is in view, is spiritual Israel, and no longer earthly Israel.

The Bible says whoever believes will be saved. Period.

Let me ask you this: the "will be saved" is in the future tense; "believes" in the aorist. Isn't it your belief that when someone becomes saved, salvation is immediate upon their believing and not in the future? If so, then explain why the difference in timing?

 

[Cameron143]

But if only His sheep hear... is one His sheep before hearing or after? It would not make
sense to say someone who is not His sheep hears and then becomes a sheep... does it?
Because being a sheep comes before hearing...

This is a great point.

 

[Rufus]

All of that has been thoroughly debunked buddy. Everything has. And yet the penal colony inmates rave on.

Folks, this guy is delusional. The Bronze Serpent typology has not been debunked. So...since the guy who thinks he's the brightest bulb in the factory hasn't debunked it, maybe one of you "lesser" lights want to take a shot?

 

[Rufus]

Some of these nay-sayers just seem to make it up as they go along...
perhaps they should be on a stage with a mic. somewhere.
They have scripted bits and they do ad lib. Very talented!

Yes, they're so talented they should all go join a traveling carnival and perform their mental gymnastics on a hire wire with no safety net.

 

[Rufus]

No one saves themselves.

Christ is the light that shone in the darkness.

You can only be saved IN HIM.

The will of God was that you believe in Jesus.

But certainly not BY Him, right?

 

[Genez]

The fact is that you don't know what I believe because rather than ask questions, you prefer barbs and make assumptions.
As usual you are only interested in division. Grace and peace.

The art of projection... Cameron

 

[Genez]

@Genez


Soooo nothing,

God given Faith does give correct thinking to the Elect in regards to the Truth of the Gospel !

Then all true Christians would be like you?
All the rest are not really saved?

He does give correct thinking...
But only a few will accept it.


In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church,
there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
No doubt there have to be factions among you to show which of
you have God’s approval.


1 Corinthians 11:18-19

 

[Rufus]

It is such an overused straw man by the "doctrines of grace" people

"You believed in/trusted in Christ Jesus and His good faith offer of salvation, that means you saved yourself."

Um no, I received a complete gift that is clearly presented in scripture.

But you FWers do save yourself, since you are the effectual cause of your own salvation. You vehemently deny that God is, therefore, sinceHhe isn't, then man must be. Isn't man sitting in the driver's seat, and God is merely his co-pilot? Isn't man in full control of his eternal destiny? Doesn't man have to make that critical choice BEFORE God can save him? Doesn't the CHOICE buck stop with man?